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The Vengeance was built covertly, it was never intended to be used covertly. It was planned to ride on the coat-tails of a massive long-range ballistic attack on the Klingons. Have you seen the movie, Jason?
The Vengeance was designed to obliterate any and all opponents posing a real or imagined threat to Earth, through sheer firepower and armor. The dark hull is likely an early stab at ablative armor, probable since the torpedo volley on it didn't explode the entire ship, as they would have any other ship. It's the first purpose-built starship since the Defiant, actually.
About the cyborg bridge officer: since the Bynars were pint-sized, genderless, vocal cord-free munchkins, I'm not sure this 6-foot computer-syntax-talking man is one, although he was an albino. Hopefully some more info will surface eventually.
Regarding the original Praxis disaster, it was a catastrophic mining explosion concerning oxygen, it very definitely could have happened at any time in Klingon history, especially after the Nero incident, in which the Klingons were directly involved. Losing a chunk of their fleet to the Narada, combined with the premature mobilization and growth of the Federation fleet should've put enormous pressure on both the Romulans and the Klingons to match their defense budget, leading to increased demand on resources all across the board, including Praxis, and kaboom.
The new Klingons seen in the movie seem decidedly xenophobic and cruel, as the new balance of power would suggest. Sure, there hasn't been a Khitomer accord yet so they have no reason to be cordial with humans, but still, gutting a human female instead of taking prisoners for interrogation, very low.
Registered: Aug 1999
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I could totally buy Praxis exploding early after the Narada incident. Heck, the Narada might have blown up Praxis for all we know. Either way, the blown up moon would explain why a heavily industrialized area of Qo'noS would be abandoned.
I thought that might have been the most Star Trek-like Star Trek movie in a long time. People striving to be better, and win out over their darker impulses, while throwing an intensely modern allegory at us? Very satisfying. Very Star Trek.
I'm glad they addressed the ramifications (and flaws) from the first film. Kirk losing the ship because he wasn't ready for it, and actually earning the chair, was a great choice of arc. He needed to face the no-win scenario, because he cheated the first time. Starfleet finding Khan and his crew for use as weapons is totally believable, as is the entire special-weapons development program in response to the Narada attack. The continued existence of trans-warp beaming is a nice note, glad that massive technical advance wasn't ignored. And I enjoyed most of the repeated notes from earlier movies, including Kirk's death, Scotty stopping the supership sent after Enterprise, defeating Khan "at great cost", Sulu in command, and Carol Marcus being involved in the development of advanced torpedoes. And the start of the five-year mission was a nice way to end it.
There were some plotholes, though. "Oh, Khan beamed to the Klingon homeworld. Better chase him in a ship and fire torpedoes at him." Uh... why not just use transwarp beaming and follow him? Or even better, beam the torpedoes to his location? Some slight comment that only Section 31 had that, and he took out the tech when he destroyed their base, would have been nice. (And possibly eliminated trans-warp beaming as a concept from future movies. It's really too powerful.) Further, I was expecting more damage from those torpedoes. I mean, they were special uber-weapon torpedoes, right? And 72 detonating inside the Vengance still left the ship partly operational? And I'm confused as to exactly what he took OUT of the torpedoes to make room for cryotubes. Obviously not explosives. I guess if Kirk had actually tried to launch the torpedoes, they would have just... sat there. And when Khan blackmailed that guy in the beginning to blow up Section 31, what hold did he have over him at that point? I mean, the man's daughter was cured. Why would he still go through with being a suicide bomber? Oh, and McCoy's plan to save Kirk. "We have to have Khan's blood! Get be a cryo-tube, and take that other augment out of it! He totally doesn't have blood we can use!" (One place where three seconds of technobabble might actually have been appreciated.)
I also thought the action was overdone in places. Kirk and Scotty trying to get to engineering went on too long. Avoiding the debris field went on too long. The action on Qo'noS (can they please SPELL IT RIGHT?) went on too long. Spock chasing down Khan was over-the-top. (Spock screaming "KHAAAAAN!" was over the top too, but I can almost forgive it. The writers are only human, and that would almost be impossible to resist.) And Carol Marcus in her underwear was just gratuitous. There were numerous occasions when I wanted the action to end so we could get on with the story.
Overall, I enjoyed it. I'd've enjoyed it more with a tighter edit.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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Oh, and I might have enjoyed it more of Khan had been a little less evil at the end. Not "Give me my people so we can TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!" But "Give me my people and we'll go live quietly on an island somewhere." The same events could have played out from there, but with more nuance. Kirk stunning Khan, then Spock blowing up the Vengeance, when Khan may honestly have wanted to live in peace? (Or does he?) That would have been a twist.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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Omega - I had the same thought: sure, Khan's by nature a bad guy, but in Space Seed, he and Kirk didn't exactly part ways as enemies ... if Ceti Alpha VI hadn't exploded, and Admiral Kirk had returned, they could've even been friends (maybe). It would've been a bold thing to bring Khan back and re-imagine him as ... not a friend, necessarily, but also not an enemy. B
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I was also curious: just what was Khan doing on Qo'noS? Did he have further plans? Or was he just going to live there until the Klingons found him and he got killed?
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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Maybe Khan thought the Federation wouldn't pursue him there? Or he hoped that the Federation would, provoke a war in doing so, and get their asses kicked by the Klingon Imperial Empire (remains a stupid name).
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As to the yield on torpedos, that has always been a sore spot for me- in TWOK (the original one )Torpedos really dont do shit by way of yield- certainly far below the range of even early nukes...but as always, such things are driven more by Plot than sense... Possibly the space the cryo tubes occupied was the toepedo's shield generator?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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I wondered if perhaps Spock beamed 72 normal photorps into the Vengeance, but I seem to remember that the torpedoes seen materializing in the Vengeance bay looked like the cone-shaped long range torps that had the cryo-tubes. Not that we've seen a standard photorp up close in this era, but when the crew first got a look at the advanced torpedoes, they seemed to react as if the shell design was unconventional.
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I have a theory about Chekov's age discrepency.
This theory requires that we accept that the characters as seen in the Alternate universe (Abrams) are the same people as in the Prime universe. I.E., Pine's Kirk, and Shatner's Kirk, are genetically the same individual, minus the differences they've experienced in their lives.
...with the exception of Chekov, who I believe indicated he had no siblings, and also was 22 in 2266, making him like, 12, in the Abrams films.
So here's my theory: Anton Chekov and Koenig Chekov are both the products of the same parents, however, for whatever reason, Chekov's parents in the alternate universe decided to have children earlier than they did in the Prime universe. Anton's Chekov would be the older brother to Koenig's Chekov.
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Oh - and the archive is the "Kelvin Memorial Archive." The explosions definitely reached above ground, so Khan probably wound up killing more than just Starfleet personnel. Also, I don't believe Khan is ever explicitly referred to as a terrorist.
Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: As to the yield on torpedos, that has always been a sore spot for me- in TWOK (the original one )Torpedos really dont do shit by way of yield- certainly far below the range of even early nukes...but as always, such things are driven more by Plot than sense... Possibly the space the cryo tubes occupied was the toepedo's shield generator?
I don't think there was anything special about the torpedoes, I think they were standard issue. Admiral Marcus was probably lying to Kirk.
Registered: Feb 2005
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Just learned that it was quite appropriate that Chekov was off the bridge during the duration of the movie. Chekov wasn't on the bridge in Space Seed. Koenig once joked that he was down in Engineering during the duration of that episode, which is what he ended up doing in the movie. Intentional homage or not, it is a nice touch!
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
...did Chekov ever see Khan in this one? I don't recall him doing so...
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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"Nibiru scene - Meh. The natives draw an image of the Big E's top side, even though the only got a good look at its front and bottom."
Actually, this is incorrect (saw it again today and made sure to take a careful look at the image): they are drawing the underside of the Enterprise. The engineering hull clearly continues through underneath the saucer on their dirt illustration; however, the cameras focuses on the drawing and fades to the Enterprise about to jump to warp, and does so from an overhead POV.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
)Torpedos really dont do shit by way of yield- certainly far below the range of even early nukes...but as always, such things are driven more by Plot than sense...
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