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Author Topic: BORG SPACE
Bernd
Guy from Old Europe
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I agree with your size figures, Darkstar, but I wonder if this a space with equally distributed Borg planets, ships and outposts. It would be better for plausibility if Borg Space were not a monolithic territory but only some sort of attack range. This might explain why not only in several timelines the Krenim have survived, but also that Annorax never even mentions them. It would also decrease the probability that the Borg and the Voth engage in a war which could destroy both of them.

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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
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Timo
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I still feel Borg space should extend all the way to Earth and beyond. The Borg can move in this area with relative impunity, and according to Picard in "First Contact" they seem to have solidified their hold of the area and actually assimilated some planets there (the "we fall back" speech). It is possible that the density of Borg planets and Cubes is in fact higher near Earth than it is near Voyager's current location. The whole galaxy could be a patchwork of areas of moderate or light Borg influence, even though the only area of heavy influence is in the deep Delta quadrant.

In any case, it seems odd that Borg space would be "lopsided" so that there is little or no Borg influence "Ocampawards" from "Scorpion", then a sudden area of major influence, and then a long "tail" of moderate to light influence Earthwards from "Scorpion". Is this for real?

Or is it just because prior to "Scorpion", the Borg did not contact the Voyager (even though they were lurking nearby) since the ship was uninteresting, but after "Scorpion", they have become interested in the ship and thus cross paths with her so often?

This way or that, I believe that the Borg are everywhere already. They just don't pick fights with the locals unless they have a reason to - and their reasons are too weird for us to comprehend. Thus, we are sometimes fooled into thinking that some areas of space are actually free of Borg influence.

Timo Saloniemi


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Malnurtured Snay
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Wait a sec ...

Aren't we supposed to be discussing Kira's sex life?

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DARKSTAR
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I think Picards remark was about the worlds the Federation had lost to the Borg. Borg space is in the Delta Quad. System J-25 is in the Beta Quad (7000 light years from Fed Space) and is a Borg colony. the Borg only send ship which are nearby to try and assimilate Earth and don't have to trog all the way from Borg Space to Earth which even at transwarp can take day's to reach (Voyager spendt a day or 2 at transwarp to do it's last big leap.) Borg Space is the biggest known held by one race. (Federation Space would fit in 22 times length ways and 10 width ways)
Earth will never fall to the Borg while Seven or Picard is alive.

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Ritten
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Picard and Mac meet in the 27th century....
There can only be ONE......

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**...****...**

[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited November 23, 2000).]


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The Talented Mr. Gurgeh
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Darkstar: Nice research.

Quasi-Realistic Analysis of The Borg Space Problem:
I think that in order to get a feel for the territories occupied by various parties it is important to realise that with 3 dimensional space there are huge numbers of possibe shapes, orientations and volumes.

When planet-dwelling species, used to thinking in 2 dimensions, take to space, it becomes much harder to control territory (think of how much harder it is to corner something in 3d than in 2d), a point made by Iain Banks in his explanation of the Culture: http://www.phlebas.com/text/cultnote.html .

This situation makes the whole process of controlling territory prohibitively difficult (for our primitive minds). However, certain simplifications occur in galaxies like our own.

1. The Milky Way is approximately a disc (spiral to be more exact). This reduces the quantity of space governed in the z direction (if we take the z direction to be the axis of rotation of the disc in either cylindrical or cartesian coordinate systems) to mere light years, especially at the edges. I am unfortunately not familiar with exactly how the galactic quadrants are positioned in relation to the galaxy itself (perhaps someone could enlighten me?), so further analysis of this isn't possible at the moment.

2. Due to the disc-like nature of the galaxy, an inclination to expand along the plane of the disc might be most probable in space faring planet dwellers.

These approximations may not apply to the Borg. In the case of the first point, position in the galaxy is important, as the galaxy has a substantially more spherical shape near the centre. In the case of the second point, it might not be correct to assume that the Borg collective would have the same perception of territory as other species, being an amalgam of other races. This is all providing the Borg do actually maintain a territory (as per Timo's point about the possible nomadic nature of the Borg).

If, however, these approximations do apply to the Borg and they can be assumed to maintain a planar territory, it shouldn't be too difficult to find the position and shape of Borg territory if you have a few reference points and use Darkstar's data (and have a lot of time on your hands).

This is my first serious Star Trek related post so if there's something obvious I've wrongly assumed don't take it personally and flame me.


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"Investigator of skullduggery,though quite lenient on buggery"

[This message has been edited by Gurgeh (edited November 23, 2000).]


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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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It's important to remember that the Borg, being a collective mind, is likely to approach issues of territory in a way incomprehensible to such benighted species as our own.

I suggest that we define Borg space not as an area within which every planet is controlled by them, but as that area in which they could exercise control if they so choosed. Considering the speed of their transwarp drives and conduits and who knows what else, I'd say Borg space could, in theory, envelop the entire galaxy.

As to why they haven't, well, who knows why something like the Borg would do anything? My favorite pet theory is that the Collective has a sense of aesthetics magnified by its billions of eyes, and has spread itself throughout those regions of space that give it the most pleasing and useful view of the galaxy. What we (or Starfleet) might consider to be a haphazard scattering of ships and stations and planets might in fact come together in some highly intricate pattern visible only when you're capable of looking at all of it at once.

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What did it mean to you
An early chat with death
To pull your body for a moment from your soul
--
Camper Van Beethoven
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Soontir_Fel
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What if Borg space could be compared to the quantum mechanical model of the atom. The closer you get to Unimatrix One, the higher the odds of encountering Borg instillations and vessels.

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"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

-Lord Darth Vader (Star Wars: A New Hope)


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TSN
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The Borg are a probability wave? Interesting... :-)

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"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000


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Krenim
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Ooh... A thread with both Trek geography and the Krenim!

Okay, Borg space... I've actually dealt with this a bit because whenever someone sees a map based on my parametric equations, their first statement is always "Isn't Borg space a little small?" So, I basically divided up the galaxy into three zones:

1. Borg Space. Borg space is just that. You won't find many (if any) non-assimilated worlds here. This is also probably where Unimatrix One is. This is basically the area Kes flung Voyager across in "The Gift."

2. Borg Zone of Influence. A much larger area of space in which the Borg are not the dominant power, but have cubes and spheres and such around that can and do assimilate peoples and technology. Basically, this space begins around the Nekrit Expanse and goes all the way to where Voyager is now, although I may very well wind up stretching all the way to Earth as the final season progresses.

3. Non-Borg Territory. That's not to say Borg don't exist in these parts, its just that ships are very few and far between for whatever reason.

As for near-Borg cultures like the Voth, Krenim, and Hirogen? Well, the Voth are probably capable of fending off Borg attacks, considering how they have huge ships with transwarp drives and cloaking devices. The Hirogen are scattered throughout the quadrant, so assimilating them wholesale is pretty much impossible. I think the idea was raised in a recent Trek book (that National Geographic-like book, I can't remember the name) that the reason the Hirogen are scattered like they are is because of a Borg attack, and they survived El-Aurian style.

And the Krenim? Here's what we know to be canon:

1. As of "Year of Hell, Part II," the Krenim Imperium is a large power with big warships, but part of its territory was in dispute with someone else.

2. The Borg have assimilated at least one Krenim, as seen in "Infinite Regress."

Is it possible the agressor in the current timeline was the Borg, instead of the Zahl? Maybe. It might explain the reference in "Infinite Regress." Then again, the Borg seem to have picked off humans other than the Wolf 359 incident, so the Borg wouldn't have had to assimilate the Imperium wholesale to get one Krenim. But you've got me as to how the Imperium stands up to the Borg, they don't appear to have a serious tactical advantage other than chroniton torpedoes, which the Borg can probably adapt to.

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DARKSTAR
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I think some Borg vessels are sent out of Borg Space on scouting missions for newworlds to assimilate. with Borg veseels easily able to sustain Warp 9.99+ I could easily say that after the Kes Gift,slipstream,Vortex,Quantumslipstream and transwarp that the main reason Voyager keeps running into Borg cubes and Borg Spheres is that they are on scouting missions to find new worlds to assimilate.
Question
With Voyager's maximum warp being Warp 9.975 could she outrun a Borg Cube?
With Defiant's maximum warp being Warp 9.982 could she outrun a Borg Cube?

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Mikey T
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Well I doubt it for two reasons:

1) The Borg have transwarp and can appear anywhere they wish.

2) The Borg may use weapons on either ship to take the warp drive off-line.

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"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!


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Nim
The Aardvark asked for a dagger
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Darkstar: I've ne'er heard about the Defiant being faster than Voyager. 9.82 sounds more fair.

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Here lies a toppled god,
His fall was not a small one.
We did but build his pedestal,
A narrow and a tall one.

-Tleilaxu Epigram


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nx001a
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Plus the borg can maintain at warp 9.999+ a lot longer than voyager or the defiant can.

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PsyLiam
Hungry for you
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The Defiant's top-warp speed has never been said on screen. The highest that's been shouted out is (I think) "Warp 9". DS9 writers, possibly in common with the show being the least "tech" out of the three modern shows, tend to just have the characters say "maximum warp".

Also, I don't recall a Borg Cube ever going at Warp 9.99+. The Borg cube in BoBW went at Warp 9.6 (since the Enterprise kept up with it for a short time). Voyager followed one with no trouble in Scorpion, p2 (I doubt it was going at warp 9.975. No-one complained about pushing the engines). And they have transwarp conduits anyway, which negates the need for SuperGoFast Warp drives.

In fact, I always thought that Voyager's top speed was so high because it was designed to outrun the Borg.

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"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer


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