posted
Ziyal: The episode was about Ireland, and had little to do with whatever the show's original premise was. One or two unrelated episodes is fine, but this is getting absurd.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
posted
Well, Shadow, considering you hate the show anyway and only enjoy watching the whole crew die, I don't really think your opinion about what Voyager should be about has any relevance to this discussion, because you'd probably find something wrong with it no matter what.
And who says that anything has to be established about a character from day one and then nothing can ever be divulged about them again? Whose to say that Janeway has become interested in Irish culture since her experience in "11:59." Sometimes, traits develop. You aren't born with an exact personality that is yours forever, never to be augmented by other things. So what if she hasn't shown interest before. Has Ireland ever come up before? I really don't think Janeway would have been discussing something like that in a "Year of Hell" situation, because in that instance it wasn't relevant. In fact, this is probably the first such episode in which such an interest would have been shown because this is the first dealing with Ireland.
It's like Star Trek. Before you watch it regularly, you know little information other than Kirk, Enterprise, and "Beam me up, Scotty." But, after watching regularly for a while, most of us are quite fluent in canon material. Your knowledge of a subject grows as you become more interested in it. I would suggest Janeway began to study her history more after "11:59," and has since become fluent in it.
------------------ "Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."
posted
Frank, what does it matter if the episode isn't about making progress towards home (or not doing so)? That's the kind of episode most people always gripe about, anyway.
It was a character piece for Janeway, with Paris, Chakotay, and the Doc sprinkled in. That's a good kind of episode; you said so yourself once, IIRC.
"Well, Shadow, considering you hate the show anyway and only enjoy watching the whole crew die, I don't really think your opinion about what Voyager should be about has any relevance to this discussion, because you'd probably find something wrong with it no matter what."
I hate the show because of episodes like this.
"And who says that anything has to be established about a character from day one and then nothing can ever be divulged about them again?"
Reality. If people have any major character aspects, they're going to show up in some form or other before five or six years down the line. It's obvious that the writers threw in the Irish interest stuff because they wanted to do this episode, not because it has any relevance to the characters. Watch Ireland never be mentioned again except in episodes involving this holodeck program.
"Whose to say that Janeway has become interested in Irish culture since her experience in '11:59.'"
Why would she be? I don't see what that episode has to do with anything.
Elim:
"Frank, what does it matter if the episode isn't about making progress towards home (or not doing so)? That's the kind of episode most people always gripe about, anyway."
Probably because the actual premise of the series really wasn't a good choice for such a long series.
"It was a character piece for Janeway, with Paris, Chakotay, and the Doc sprinkled in. That's a good kind of episode; you said so yourself once, IIRC."
But, it has no relevance to those characters, or anything else.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "I'm still amazed at how unintuitive the Windows world is and how it tries to mimic the Mac." - John de Lancie
[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited January 17, 2000).]
quote:"Frank, what does it matter if the episode isn't about making progress towards home (or not doing so)? That's the kind of episode most people always gripe about, anyway."
Probably because the actual premise of the series really wasn't a good choice for such a long series.
Frank, you're talking yourself in circles.
You hate the series because of the premise, but only because of these types of episodes?
quote:But, it has no relevance to those characters, or anything else.
How do you know that? This is designed to be a long-term relationship, IIRC.
posted
In reference to "11:59," I meant that since maybe Janeway was disappointed in Shannon O'Donnel, she decided to explore her history a little bit more, find something that in her mind she could be genuinely proud of, who knows? With that whole 'Ancestor's Eve' thing, it may have inspired her.
And no, Ireland probably won't get mentioned again except for episodes in which Fair Haven appears; however, there still remains that question of relevance. Janeway's just not going to say, "Oh, and by the way, did you know that Ireland, blah, blah, blah..." while her ship is getting blown to bits or one of her crew is in danger or something of that nature. Things have to be taken in the context in which they are given.
------------------ "Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."
"You hate the series because of the premise, but only because of these types of episodes?"
No, because the fact that they even make these kinds of episodes indicates the premise is flawed.
"How do you know that? This is designed to be a long-term relationship, IIRC."
Right. A long-term relationship with a holo-character. Didn't they try that in the first season or something?
5748:
"In reference to '11:59,' I meant that since maybe Janeway was disappointed in Shannon O'Donnel, she decided to explore her history a little bit more, find something that in her mind she could be genuinely proud of, who knows? With that whole 'Ancestor's Eve' thing, it may have inspired her."
How do we know if her ancestors were really significantly connected with Ireland, though?
"And no, Ireland probably won't get mentioned again except for episodes in which Fair Haven appears; however, there still remains that question of relevance. Janeway's just not going to say, 'Oh, and by the way, did you know that Ireland, blah, blah, blah...' while her ship is getting blown to bits or one of her crew is in danger or something of that nature. Things have to be taken in the context in which they are given."
There have been plenty of opportunities to mention any interest in Ireland. TSN mentioned Picard's interest in archaeology, Sisko's interest in baseball, etc. Those were all important aspects of their characters.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "I can't remember stuff." - John Linnell
posted
We might not have heard any definitive evidence to suggest that Janeway had Irish origins, but the name O'Donnel surely doesn't come from, say, India. And even if we were to go with Janeway, which I believe is an English name, Ireland is near Great Brittain, and the two are intertwined in history - she may have learned about Ireland from studying England for all we know. The point is, there are theories that can be developed for her knowing about Ireland.
As for you saying it could have come up before, it is possible, but not likely, and definitely not comparable to Picard's interest in archaeology. Archaeology is a broad science that can applied to many different situations. It was inevitable an archaeological situation would occur in Star Trek. However, Irish history does one little good while in the Delta Quadrant, except for maybe a comparison. And how many times have we heard the crew say "You know, this new D.Q. species reminds of Ireland (or whatever place or thing)? Not many.
And even you own example with DS9/Sisko/baseball is flawed. Take "Take Me Out to the Holosuite," for example. That episode doesn't have a whole heck of a lot to do with the Dominion War, but yet it's in there and you don't seem to mind. So what's the difference between these two episodes? "Fair Haven" simply established Janeway's interest, which we will likely see again in "Spirit Folk," whereas "TMOttH" added to what we knew about Sisko/baseball. "Spirit Folk" later on will probably do the same thing for "Fair Haven."
------------------ "Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."
[This message has been edited by Individual 5748 (edited January 17, 2000).]
"Therefore DS9's premise/shifting premises were also flawed?"
If they want to bring Voyager home and make it a show about Ireland, they're free to do so.
"Leonardo da Vinci was the closest Trek has ever come to this."
Janeway was playing a character in a 19th-century thing early on.
5739:
"We might not have heard any definitive evidence to suggest that Janeway had Irish origins, but the name O'Donnel surely doesn't come from, say, India. And even if we were to go with Janeway, which I believe is an Irish name,"
"11:59" showed that the ancestors the names came from lived in the US. For all we know it was their great-grandfathers who were Irish, and nothing more.
"And even you own example with DS9/Sisko/baseball is flawed. Take "Take Me Out to the Holosuite," for example. That episode doesn't have a whole heck of a lot to do with the Dominion War, but yet it's in there and you don't seem to mind."
I mind, but we had a multi-episode war arc later in that season to make up for it.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "I can't remember stuff." - John Linnell
[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited January 17, 2000).]
posted
So...? Let's look at "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" and "Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang"... By your logic, the inclusion of such stories proves that the premise was a failure, yes?
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