posted
I was avoiding jumping into this thread and flailing about, but it looked like sooo much fun...
The idea that "they" (whoever they may be) found further thresholds above warp 9 and below the (previous) warp 10 and reassigned warps 10-13+ to those thresholds while infinite speed was given a new number (if at all, maybe at the time of AGT, infinite speed was simply referred to as Eugene's Limit...) is the one that is the most internally consistent of the rationalizations surrounding Riker's line in AGT.
Okuda produced Tranwarp-compatible displays for the E-A in ST IV before the Great Bird decided transwarp hadn't worked. These displays are in fact reprinted in Mr. Scott's Guide, although Okuda initially denied it, saying they were doctored by Shane Johnson, before finally admitting it.
The whole cloaking thing was a result of the Great Bird declaring that our heroes shouldn't "sneak around". Between the stolen Romulan cloak and the Klingon (or Romulan, depending on how far one wants to reach) Bird-of-Prey they hauled up from the bottom of the Golden Gate, Starfleet engineers had plenty to work with. It's still uncertain whether the Treaty of Algeron was the treaty that ended the Romulan War or some treaty signed (or amended) just before or just after the Tomed Incident, but that that treaty stipulated the Federation eschewing cloaking technology is not uncertain. In the AGT future, they were at war with the Romulans (or at least exchanging harsh words), so it makes sense that the treaty would no longer be a consideration. And depending on when this treaty -- or more specifically, this stipulation -- had effect, there might have been developments in Federation cloaking tech between ST IV and 2311. And some branches of tech fandom follow that idea. I don't know if I do or not, but it's certainly a fun area to play around in...
And as for the GR rules of ship design, those are purely a result of the falling out between GR and Franz Joseph. The whole story there is available for perusal, but the end result was GR declaring that ships have even numbers of nacelles (invalidating the Hermes, Saladin, and Federation classes FJ created), nacelles should have at least 50% "crosstalk" space between them (invalidating the Ptolemy and Federation classes FJ created), the ramscoops should have at least 50% unobstructed forward view (invalidating the Hermes and Saladin classes FJ created)... you get the idea. These "rules" have been violated again since, so the current party line is that either the odd nacelle has two sets of coils inside (which I have a hard time swallowing), or that there are periodic experiments with odd numbers of nacelles when there is a significant enginery advance -- it works, it just doesn't work WELL...
And lastly, I don't know WHERE that "warp 1 = .75c and all warp factors after that are between .75c and c" comes from, but that ain't what's onscreen by a long shot. Ignoring for the moment the "fact" that a ship is sublight within its own warp envelope and dealing with apparant speeds... From the very beginning, warp 1 was c. Whichever scale and system was involved, everything higher than warp 1.0 was FTL, and we have the travel times to prove it. In the current era, warp 10 is the number assigned to the theoretical, and unattainable (the excrecable "Threshold" aside), infinite maximum -- which by definition means you are occupying all points in the universe simultaneously.
I'll stop there to give all parties a chance to respond...
--Jonah
------------------ "It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."
--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH
[This message has been edited by Peregrinus (edited February 25, 2001).]
posted
Who ever said warp 1 was .75 c? Every warp calibration chart does show warp 1 to equal the speed of light. The old one places the warp factors near the cubes of the speed of light and the new one, well, just is. Impulse is declared to be .25 the speed of light. And at this point I will give up the idea of trying to explain warp in a different context as no one seems to care all the much.
PsyLiam, I see your point now that you've explained yourself a bit better. I was simply researching to confirm/deny what letsalope was saying, not trying to can the entire thread. And for those who don't know, I AM slightly anal-retentive, detail oriented, perfectionist, technically minded, etc.
HOWEVER, I would like to point out that your humorous example was more the quite a bit flawed where my explanation, (or rather Okuda's and Sternbach's) is concerned. I just hope you recognize that fact.
posted
letsalope said the following above. It's not very clear, so I wouldn't be surprised if I misunderstood, but...
"evil lord. it is not the recalibration of the warp scale.at normal speed in a warp feild i think it is 3/4 of the speed of light, at maximum contracting of space at that time is 9.6 .between 9.6 and warp 10 is the speed between 3/4 of the speed of light speed and light speed,so it wouldn't be known as warp 13 so it is easier for captains not to say warp 9.9999......."
--Jonah
------------------ "It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."
posted
its only impossible to travel faster than light with standard masses. tachyons travel faster than light because they do not have normal masses like other matter. you should read the "physics of star trek" by stephen hawking, letsalope. beside, the speed of light is dictated by the environment. light through a gas can be slower OR faster than 186,000 miles per second. it is only imossible to go faster than light if you are dealing with standard masses, and you are comparing the speed of the object to the actual speed of light in that medium. (i hope that makes sense) --jacob
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Yes, you are correct. The speed of light in a VACUUM is 300,000 kps or 186,000 mps. It changes depending on the medium through which it travels, as you said. However, that is exactly what we're talking about, things traveling in a vacuum. And starships do have mass. So technically, (there I go again, "technically"), a starship cannot travel faster than the speed of light, without a little help from warp physics.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Uh...what exactly are we talking about? That Trek ships won't work without a healthy helping of magic physics? Well, yes, obviously. But within the show we've got it, and it lets starships travel at faster than light speeds without tossing causality out the window.
posted
yeah, its dumb to talk of trek ships without talking about warp physics. i didn't even think that warp physics weren't being included in the argument. especially since it was stated that warp 1 was .75c etc... --jacob
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letsalope: Are you actually saying that the ships in Star Trek don't travel faster than the speed of light, full stop? You ask where in the world did I get FLT drive in the Star Trek universe? I'd answer...just about everywhere ever.
The ships ARE travelling faster than the speed of light, in just about every sense. Or do you really think that there's YEARS between every episode as the ships crawl from place to place at slower than light-speed, er, speeds? (I should point out that Transporters are as equally against the laws of physics as FLT drive. And yet they seem to exist quite happily in Star Trek.)
Stephen Hawking wrote the physics of Star Trek? The wheelchair guy (to quote someone far funnier than I)? Wow.
------------------ "And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!" -Bubbles
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited February 28, 2001).]
posted
the physics of star trek was written by lawrence m kraus and stephen hawking. maybe the statements that te ships are not travelling faster than light is that they are not travelling faster than light in relation to light in the subspace field the ship is in, but it is travelling at great speed in relation to objects in normal space.
posted
Look, I haven't read this whole thread but I'd just like to comment on "Threshold". I don't believe that they actually achieved Transwarp or warp 10 or anything... I believe that they thought that they had, but in actual fact this new for of dilithium just fucked them all up.
------------------ "This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"
posted
I'm kinda curious to know about the nacelles on Federation ships, what's their purpose? And apparently without any visible nacelles of their own how do Borg cubes get around, how do they create or open transwarp conduits?
posted
psyliam, how many times do i have to say this, none of the ships travel faster than light.remembering warp isn't a speed it's a factor.(only between 9.6 and 10) is when ships do actually have a slight speed increase.
transporters only travel at the speed of light.not faster!
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