posted
I don't know why, but I didn't like the models in "T&T." They just looked. . . I dunno, fake. Which is, after all, what they are - maybe they looked too much like models, I guess! Could it be I was so used to seeing the Enterprise in fuzzy 60's TV quality?
------------------ "I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."
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posted
A few gripes that are slightly off-topic:
If the ship and its cloak were as "antiquated" as was claimed, how come Voyager's standard sensors didn't detect it immediately?
[Even more off-topic] So much for a tactical advantage in a cloak, because Voyagers' shields were up (?!). And why, oh why did a couple of ancient torpedoes reduce those shields of a supposedly state-of-the-art ship by at least 50 percent? [/Even more off-topic]
------------------ "Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of Evil"
posted
They also showed the D-7 firing torpedoes from the deflector.
And the ship had a cloaking device - the first D-7 or K'tinga we saw with a cloaking device (in Star Trek time) was Kang's ship in "Flashback" on Voyager.
Chronologically in RL, the first time we saw those ships with cloak was in DS9's "Way of the Warrior," IIRC.
I suppose high-ranking ships could have had cloaks, explaining Kang's ship. Even so, the guys in "Prophecy" left before the Khitomer Accords (presumably before ST6). That means they had a cloak pretty early on, like Kang did.
I have not checked, but the ship on Voyager looked to be the CGI K'tinga from DS9 episodes, not the smooth model Jein built for "T&T." I'd have to watch again, though.
At any rate, the episode's D-7 may have undergone many refits along her century of a journey - that may explain weapons & surface-detailing inconsistencies.
Oh, and what was with the streaking particles at impulse?? ...and the overloading Voyager deflector glow??? *L*
posted
I for one - LOVED the T&T models... so crisp and clean - so REAL. The original Enterprise was very hard for me to picture "real" T&T did it for me. Models still look better and more real than CGI - and remember we don't get the nice beauty shots of starships anymore with CGI - because they render moving CGI at a lower resolution because each frame will end up part of a much larger movie...
Its easy to notice because if you see the CGI screen caps around the web - the CGI ones always have seem to have comeout less clear than the models... see the "A Time to Stand" screen caps.
Tsk.
Andrew
------------------ "This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"
posted
Actually, the first D-7 (or TOS battlecruiser, whatever its actual designation) to be seen cloaking was the Romulan vessel in "The Enterprise Incident". Kang's "Flashback" cruiser was the first cloaking battlecruiser to be seen in *Klingon* hands (although I don't think we ever actually saw it cloak or decloak), but Klingons could have acquired cloaks far earlier, perhaps even the same time the Romulans got those battlecruisers.
In any case, there is a clear difference between the TOS ship and the K't'inga in that the former doesn't have impulse engines at all. Did Jein's "T&T" ship have impulse engines? Should we assume that the TOS ships had those, too?
There are plenty of possibilities to wiggle out of this mess.
1) Tuvok may have at first misidentified the ship - it looks like a TOS ship from dead ahead, after all. Perhaps only a closer look at the stern parts revealed it to be of some other class, but this information was not so critical that Tuvok would have divulged it when the camera was looking at him.
2) Tuvok may have correctly identified the ship, and D-7 is the correct designation for the "T&T" ship but incorrect for the TOS ships (which could be D-6 or something). The "T&T" ship may come in torpedo-firing versions even if the one actually seen in that DS9 episode had a deflector dish.
3) Tuvok may have correctly identified the ship as belonging to a big family of ships, which is called D-7 and includes the TOS ships, the "T&T" ship and the K't'inga, but excludes the TAS ships (which would be D-5).
4) Tuvok may have correctly identified the ship as belonging to a big family that is called D-7 and includes ALL the battlecruiser variants seen. The TAS ship is another D-7 variant, while the D-5 class IKC Klothos spoken of by Kor was an even older ship which Kor later used as the namesake of his TAS D-7.
posted
A while ago I put together a list of the Klingon ships, assuming that the "D" names were just a designation, and not the actual class name.
I've always figured that the D-## numbers were production numbers, not the actual class name.
D-7 - Kolode or Akif or whatever (no 'real' name was ever canonically established).
D-8 - the K't'inga Class. This has to be a different class because of its different length and different configuration of the forward pod and the engineering section.
D-9 - the first B'rel Class BOP.
D-10 - The K'vort Class BOP.
D-11 - A new, "refit" version of the B'rel using updated technology but the same hull design. This helps explain why the same basic BOP has been in use for 90+ years.
D-12 - another B'rel update, the one seen in Generations.
D-13 - the Vor'cha Class cruiser.
D-14 - the latest model of the B'rel. This is the one that saw the most action in the Dominion War.
D-15 - the Negh'Var assault cruisers.
~~~~~
I haven't seen "Prophecy" yet, but it seems to me that they'd use the D-7 cruiser for this. Aren't these Klingons supposed to be an outcast sect or something? One would expect that they wouldn't get their hands on a state-of-the-art model, but rather an older ship that was about to be decommissioned.
As for the cloaking device, we know that the Klingons had them as early as 2285 (Star Trek III) and probably a lot earlier, like 2270. Most people seem to agree that the Klingons exchanged D-7 cruisers to the Romulans in exchange for cloaking devices. (IMO, they did a straight trade of ships, which is how the Klingons started using ships that were called "Bird-of-Prey.")
Actually, the first Klingon cruiser with an active cloaking device was the sleeper ship, T'Ong. As seen in TNG, Year 2, "The Emissary". The ship seen was the same one from TMP. They actully used that shot from the opening scene of TMP having matted out the other two cruiser's. The T'Ong was launched in 2290, same year as Kang's confrontation with Sulu (VOY,"Flashback").
Also, I happen to own an original copy of TMP Blueprints, signed by Gene Roddenberry and Andrew Probert. They were released on December 7, 1979 and published by Pocket Books, copyright 1980. The general plans for the Klingon Warship interpret as follows:
Model: Drell-4 Type: Battle cruiser Class: Star Cruiser
-- I expect this will be glossed over, as I posted the information on boards in years past and it was virtually ignored. Purrr.... -- I would love to comment on what is seen in VOY, "Prophecy". But I won't catch it until Sunday evening.
posted
P'sia: No one at this board glosses over anyone else's posts...unless the person doesn't know what they're talking about. Then we just make fun of them.
posted
Yeah, That's the really fun part about coming here. 8)
------------------ "I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."
Well then. Go ahead and have at it. I know we can get serious. But its all in fun really anyway.
I saw VOY, "Prophecy", finally. Not sure what I make of the Klingon ship. The level of window detail and the blue-green inside the warp nacelles, implies it is the model of Krono's One from ST:VI. Krono's One having been the orginal TMP ship model that got detailed further. But when they showed it from the top, bearing down on Voyager, the details around the bridge command pod seemed lacking (I think someone else pointed that out). It suggests CGI may actually be the case there. Perhaps close detail was not really necessary.
What I think disappointed me most was the Klingon torpedos. I wish they appeared more like those fired by Kang's cruiser's in VOY, "Flashback". The same ones seen in TMP.
The more I re-read this thread, the more I can't seem to recall at what point "K'T'Inga" became popular-in general. We had already established D-7 for the TOS battlecruiser via "Trials & Tribble-ations". The class designation actually made it into the Encyclopedia as a _conjectural_ entry. SO I guess it was never actually spoken in the movies or TNG.
[This message has been edited by Psi'a Meese (edited February 12, 2001).]
posted
I have a chart of alien starships... from Ex Astris Scientia - I think it was done by Bernd... anyway he puts the K't'inga at 214m and the D7? from TOS at 228m... does anyone know why there's such a large difference in length!?!
Andrew
------------------ "This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"
posted
Apparently, the differences in forward pod and warp nacelle shapes are enough to justify that difference. The TMP modelmakers didn't produce an exact copy of the TOS cruiser, any more than the movie Enterprise was a copy of the TOS ship. Several important hull parts of the vessels were changed in dimensions and shape, in addition to the obvious changes of nacelle or pylon type.
I'd be happiest if every Klingon design had a double identifier - a D number AND a class name. So far, there are no clear cases of such a thing being true, though. There is no canon D designation for the K't'inga or the B'Rel or the K'Vort, and no name for D-7 or D-5 or D-12 - and the rest of the names and designations are noncanon.
My interpretation:
D-4/???: a pre-TOS ship, as John M. Ford writes D-5/???: the TAS ship, also used by Ford D-6/Klolode: the TOS ship D-7/Akif: the "Trials and Tribble-ations" ship D-8/K't'inga: the TMP ship D-9/????: the small ST3/DS9 BoP, D-12/B'Rel: the large BoP from "Generations", currently retired or for sale to Ferengi D-13/K'Vort: the large BoP from TNG/DS9 D-14/Vor'Cha: the attack cruiser D-15/Negh'Var: the command ship
posted
One thing I've never understood is why some people try to distinguish the Klingon cruisers from TOS and TAS. I recently looked at a TAS site that had pictures of the battlecruiser as seen in the animated episodes, and the design was identical to the cruiser as seen in "The Enterprise Incident" et al.
The only differences were: (1) The torpedo tube projects OUT of the forward hull instead of being recessed. (2) There are a pair of horizontal fins on the ship, near the back of the neck, I believe.
Other than that, the designs are identical. Apparently, the animators used a TOS model kit as the reference, and the instructions were a bit off the mark with regard to those two features. But otherwise, they're identical.
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