posted
> If Hanson were going to transfer his flag to >another ship, he would've moved to one of the >newer, more powerful ships in the fleet.
...Unless he was on a aux control or flag bridge of an older ship, which is certainly possible. Defiant aside, I really wouldn't want to comand a fleet while the ship's captain is busy trying to keep everyone alive.
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: One pet peeve of mine... why does everyone INSIST that the Melbourne was that Excelsior-class ship in "Emissary"? Is it simply the listing from the Encyclopedia that that assertion is based on? I've never, ever been able to read the Excelsior's hull lettering that clearly at all. Or is there some other evidence that I've forgotten about?
Actually, the name Melbourne is readable on the hull before the Borg cutter does it's stuff. The clearest way to see it is in motion, not on a freeze-frame. The best way I've seen it is on my old VCR, that had a jog shuttle for precise 1/24th frame movement forward and back. The best way to see the name "Melbourne" is to start from the explosion of the saucer and reverse the motion in realtime until the Borg cutter disappears. As the Excelsior Class moves backwards, you just need to stare at the hull name to read "Melbourne".
Using this technique on TBoBW, when the small pice of junk flies past the Enterprise as the big -D enters the debris field, reversing the motion lets you see the two LED lights that look like the sparking effect of the junk piece.
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: That last option might not be a bad idea necessarily, except for one problem -- in the static-y comm message, you can clearly see an old "Wrath of Khan"-style screen reading "Alert: Condition Red." If Hanson were going to transfer his flag to another ship, he would've moved to one of the newer, more powerful ships in the fleet. (Like the Galaxy-class ship that was suggested to have been at the battle.) Instead, it's got an older-style background that's more appropriate to an Excelsior or a Miranda.
Aren't the "Condition Red" displays also present on Ent-D's battle bridge? Besides, I would figure this to be more of a software than a hardware issue.
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posted
I doubt we're seeing the very beginning of the battle in "Emmisary". But then I also think Hanson was on the Melbourne which we see destroyed. No, Sisko doesn't seem like he's seen a bunch of ships blown away... but perhaps the Saratoga just got there. As was suggested, maybe they were on the other side of the system with a small group of ships and had just gotten to the battlefield. Or maybe they were just getting to the system period.
"Another ship's coming in... it's the Saratoga!" buh da Da duh doh DAA!!!!
posted
Okay, then we can ask the question this way: with the verbatim line, "Admiral Hanson has deployed the Melbourne, the Kyushu, and the Gage," why would they say the line like that if Hanson himself were coming to help them?
The idea of the Saratoga coming in late doesn't work, either -- because in BOBW, Hanson said that they had 40 ships gathered, LONG before the battle started. So the Saratoga was definitely there waiting.
Besides, the Borg would have no reason for broadcasting their "resistance is futile" message more than once -- they never do that any other time we meet them, anyway. That's why they make their "We are the Borg" announcement over the comm in "First Contact," too. Therefore, "Emissary" starts at the beginning of the battle.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
What about Hanson's own state of mind as an indicator for his "fight's not going well" comment?
He might have been expecting the worst about the upcoming battle, but when the fight did begin, it completely blew away his worst case scenario. Afterall, no one has really faught the Borg before, besides the Enterprise.
No one at Wolf 359 had any first hand accounts as to just how powerful the Borg is, only debriefs from our heroes. And the fact that Ent-D survived three unfriendly matches with a Cube would help re-enforce the idea that, "ok, the Borg is nasty, they beat a Galaxy, but a Galaxy is still only one ship. We've got 40, at least one of whom is almost as good as a Galaxy alone."
The fact that Starfleet didn't pump enough resources to crash program ships like the Defiant or new anti-Borg into service before Wolf 359 would seem to support Starfleet's brass's overall attitude towards the Borg problem. "Ok, it's a notable threat, and we're working on countering it, but it's not really enough to get our panties in a bunch." It was afterall, just one ship. The contrast between Hanson's "we've got 40 ships " and "nearest help is 4 days away " can also be an example of that 'worried but not scared enough' state of mind.
Maybe Hanson thought that he could blow through Borg adaption defence with sheer brute force from 40 different ships, and when the initial barrage of phasers and torpedoes impacted against the Cube for no appreciable result, he simply panicked. We don't know his service record, we don't know if he's one of those Fighting Admirals or not. Even if he was, there would still be a certain amount of fear generated from watching the enemy not even itched by your attacks. He might have been used to enemies that actually die from such a barrage.
Add that to the fact that you didn't account for an enemy quite this powerful (for one, he thought he could withdraw and regroup the fleet against the Cube, and had apparently already tried to put that plan into effect, since he was giving Ent-D details on something that seemed already decided), and the fact the damn thing seem to be making a beeline for you ("Locutus says... Kill the command ship!")... I would say the fight isn't going well, if I were in his shoes, even if the fight hasn't been going on for all that long.
-------------------- "God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
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posted
...Unless for some reason they DIDN'T establish comunications beforehand. I'm all for giving non-Hero Starfleet personel some credit!
Besides, if you look strictly at time elapsed, there really isn't time enough between Locutus shutting up and the Melbourne's destruction for hanson to say what he did. The ship was rocking around a couple of times, and after all she was basically gone in one shot. The only real reason Saratoga survived that long, or so we rationalize, was that she was being studied or assimilated or something other than being blown up.
Let's say that a previous theory works, and a bunch of ships were working to bring the cube out of warp (though the theory that the cube WANTED to off the fleet there also holds weight). Anyway, so a bunch of ships are doing that somehow, succeed, and the ship drops out and encounters The Saratoga group. The Borg establish comms, and off we go.
>"Admiral Hanson has deployed the Melbourne, the >Kyushu, and the Gage,"
Um, I'm 99.99999% certain that this line was never in any actual episode. Can someone tell me where this line was SUPPOSED to be?
Finally, every time we start this discussion (which NEVER gets old, really), I always go and re-read the ol' Wolf 359 Research site of Bernd's. I think we all should.
posted
The line is only from the script (although a relatively late version of it) and is mainly remembered because it's reproduced in the "Making of DS9" book. Even the original release of "Emissary" (the one with O'Brien on the E-D transporter room) didn't have that line.
Once again, I'd ignore the script in favor of what we saw on screen. And leave open all the possibilities the on-screen scenes leave open. Here are some:
1) The Saratoga could well have been a late arrival in the battle, joining only after the Borg had done an initial round of slaughtering and were rebroadcasting their party line. That would better match Sisko's emotional state. Lack of debris prior to the scene would simply mean the previous volley was fired a few thousand kilometers off camera.
2) Hanson need not have died when his message cut off. I suspect the Borg started jamming all the messages at that point instead. Otherwise, wouldn't the E-D simply have called the next ship to find out what was going on? Not all the ships died simultaneously in a split second, even if "BoBW" might have left us with that impression.
3) The battle need not really have taken place in the Wolf 359 system (or close to Wolf 359 if it doesn't have a system), any more than the Battle of Agincourt took place near Agincourt. If battles were always named after the actual location, we'd have hundreds of engagements called "the Battle of Empty Space"! Much like Agincourt was the closest place *of noble worth* to the famous battle, Wolf 359 could have been named after the staging area instead of the "site" of the running battle.
Not that I'd strongly believe in the latter. It just goes to show we can make this as complicated as we wish.
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posted
"Besides, the Borg would have no reason for broadcasting their "resistance is futile" message more than once..."
Unless they had Locutus doing some extra PR for the collective, like "Hey, uh, guys, just a friendly reminder that it's not too late to change your mind about this whole assimilation deal" or something. B)
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Well... this was a little different than simply naming the battle. Hanson specifically said that that is where the fleet was going to make its stand. And when the Enterprise arrives at the battlefield, the Boy says "We're approaching the Wolf System." So I'm pretty sure that the battle actually happened near the star.
posted
IIRC the original script for BOBW (I don't have the CD version to check to see if it is the same) listed the set design for Admiral Hanson's filming location as "Galaxy Class Bridge".
"The man on the top walks a lonely path. The chain of command is often a noose." Dr. Leonard McCoy --Obsession, Stardate: 3619.2
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
The comments about Hanson's state of mind are interesting; Starfleet did have very limited experience with the Borg at that time. Also, I think we've tended to underestimate the size of the fleet, especially in light of the DS9 fleets. 40 ships is actually quite a lot, bearing in mind that only single ship encounters (Enterprise and Lalo) had occured before. hanson could've basically been thinking the Borg are like big Cardassians- a few early successes but we'll clean their chronometers once we get a fleet in there.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
As to the Melbourne getting whacked so quickly while the Saratoga is examined: Loqutus probably did that to demoralize the fleet and cut off it's leadership. It's also very Borg-like to examine one of each starship and just destroy the rest. By the time we see the Melbourne eat it, the Borg could have examined a Excelsior already or noted another in the system and didint need two.
Or Picard secretly relished whacking J.P.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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