quote:With regards to Preston: Surely a spoken line should be considered more important than a rank pin?
It wasn't just Preston. Other enlisted trainees also wore rank insignia. I've read on several pages that there are Cadet Officers and Cadet NCOs, so maybe Preston was a Cadet Ables'man?
I don't think that dialogue should take precedence over rank pins, displays or whatever. Sometimes the dialogue is incorrect and sometimes the pins/displays are. We should decide which fact is more important from case to case.
BTW: I think the Axanar Peace Mission wasn't that important at all. Kirk's comment sounds more like he was defending politicans than referring specifically to the Axanar Mission.
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Another chronological fact to take into consideration. In the briefing room, where the captain discusses the fate of Gary Mitchell, Dr. Dehner says Spock knew Mitchell for years which implies that Kirk's friend was aboard the Enterprise for at least two years. So, if the files are those for the USS Enterprise, then Gary Mitchell is twenty five at least and maybe a little older.
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Those would be pretty bad records if they weren't updated when their information becomes out of date.
Although (and I'm sure this has come up before), what sort of record has an "age" catagory anyway? The only time that makes sense is if it is some sort of variable field constantly calculated by comparing the person's DOB with the current date. That has to be what the Enterprise was using (unless someone wants to argue that Spock had pulled up paper records), so either Mitchell is 23 at that moment in time, or the record's are silly and wrong.
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When the age issue was last discussed, it was suggested that the onset of psi abilities might be closely tied to age. Perhaps all other fields on these record cards (which do look like paper cards, with handwritten entries and all) are updated, but age refers to the age in which the assessment of psi potential was made?
As regards the ST2 Starfleet personnel, I think we should note that even though this was a training cruise, not everybody aboard would be a rookie! When Kirk asks Scotty whether his "cadets" could handle a little training cruise, he omits the fact that perhaps 80% of the crew is actually "veteran" already. And only a fraction of those for whom this trip represents "training" are true officer cadets, while others are enlisted trainees, and some seem to be postgrad officers like Saavik.
And Peter Preston need not be a trainee at all. When Kirk interviews him, he's self-identified as an already "graduated" enlisted man, not as a trainee or cadet of any sort, right? Kirk then asks whether this is his first training cruise, but the "yes" to that does not need to mean he would be the one who is being trained... This could be the first training cruise for McCoy, too, if you catch my drift.
quote:Originally posted by Timo: And Peter Preston need not be a trainee at all. When Kirk interviews him, he's self-identified as an already "graduated" enlisted man, not as a trainee or cadet of any sort, right?
Nope, he identified himself as a Midshipman 1st class.
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I'm guessing Midshipman 1st Class is the designation of 4th year Adcademy cadet (at the time), while Engineer's Mate would just be a position aboard ship.
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Doesn't usually "midshipman" refer to, precisely, a cadet on a training cruise? That would be a rank (below ensign, as he/she hasn't become a commissioned officer yet), as opposed to a position. With "1st class" meaning he's in his last year at the academy.
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quote:Originally posted by machf: Doesn't usually "midshipman" refer to, precisely, a cadet on a training cruise? That would be a rank (below ensign, as he/she hasn't become a commissioned officer yet), as opposed to a position. With "1st class" meaning he's in his last year at the academy.
Exactly.
Midshipman (TOS) - US Naval designation for 'trainees'. Cadet (TNG) - US Air Force designation for 'trainees'.
Seemingly TOS had it right all along, because midshipman is consistant with the ensign through commodore to admiral designation corresponding to Naval tradition.
Then again we have the problem with Colonel West, whose rank of "colonel" is the US Air Force equilivent of the US Navy Captain.
Finally, reviewing some old Royal/US Navy traditions, with regards to Kirk and Saavik being Lieutenants in the Academy...there is the following example:
"Commissions to lieutenant were limited in the early navy, and a [midshipman] candidate had to wait until vacancies occured. To allow midshipmen to exercise more authority, those who had passed their examinations for lieutenant [at that time the lowest commissioned rank] were called 'passed midshipmen', and could serve as officers in the fleet until a lieutenant's (or, later, master's) vacancy opened. This title disappeared when the rank of ensign was authorized in 1862."
With that in mind, I have a theory. Assuming that both Kirk and Saavik were in the 'command program' and with 250 years of rank tweaking yet to come (and considering how much rank has changed in the last 150 years) perhaps cadets/midshipmen attending 'Command School' were given the Trek/Starfleet equivelant to 'passed midshipmen' and given the rank of Lieutenant while still in the Academy or still attending Command School. Having the rank Ensign in there kind of confuses the issue some, but at least TOS didn't utilize the Lt(j.g.) rank, or did they?
Anyway, thats my take on it. I guess you just have to keep in mind that 250 years of change 'yet to come' could still play a major role in what ranks an imaginary space organization may or may not use.
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quote:but at least TOS didn't utilize the Lt(j.g.) rank, or did they?
Yes, it did. Lt. JG Joe Tormolen for example.
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TSN: As to my take on scripts and deleted/cut scenes, hopefully I'll have the new format of my shiplist up and running soon enough, and then you shall see...
Futurama Guy: No one said Kirk was a lieutenant while still attending the academy. I had hoped my little chronology would have cleared that up. He was an ensign, then presumably promoted to lieutenant junior grade on graduation, and then to lieutenant.
-MMoM
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Hmmm... maybe to attend Command School they must have graduated from the Academy first (IOW, completed the usual 4 years and go for some more), and are appointed a temporary lieutenant rank... ("3rd lieutenant" or something like that would be my guess, based on Starship Troopers...)
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