quote:Originally posted by TSN: Nazis were known to make things out of human skin. That didn't take long to "just appear".
I don't know of anything particularly skin-made, but I can say that most people didn't realize that their candles, for instance, were being made from human bodies. The context of the Cardassian quote doesn't conform to that.
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I suppose it would be futile for me to point out that it wouldn't be the first time something in Pathways conflicted with Canon...?
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Not that I've seen the episode... but could the whole Hoshi thing be like Picard's little artifical heart incident?
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"I don't know of anything particularly skin-made..."
Well, it's just an example I remember learning about in school at some point, but there was some Nazi woman (wife of someone important, I think) who had a lampshade made out of the skin of executed concentration campers.
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Amasov Prime
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quote:Originally posted by Harry: And Kirk and co. were actually on Organia, the homeworld of these creatures. It would be pretty painful if lab rats came into a scientist's house to observe him.
IIRC, Kirk called them Organians because the Federation had named the planet Organia. Neither the Klingons nor the Organians never used that term. So a) do we really know this was their homeworld and b) why do energy-beings need a homeworld anyway? Maybe the "Organians" just chose the planet to initiate contact with the Klingons and the Starfleet because it was located in neutral space close to the Klingon Empire and the Federation?
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"How would Archer and company have any way of knowing that it was the Ferengi they encountered, anyway?"
Because, when someone takes over your ship, but you end up capturing them, you'd be expected to interrogate them before letting them go (assuming you have to let them go).
Additionally, if aliens take over your ship, you're going to at least get a really good description of them and they will be picked up by various secruity cameras and possibly sensor logs/readings.
Later these records will be compared with other reports and a composite picture will be formed. Kinda like with any intelligence agency.
Further, if you're coming across these aliens in the 22nd century, surely by the 24th century they'll be pretty well known. Especially aliens with the personality and reputation like the Ferengi. They weren't isolationists, after all.
From Ex Astris Scientia:
quote:So this episode is supposed to preserve continuity only because the word "Ferengi" is never uttered? It is ludicrous that the Ferengi should be identified as late as 213 years later when the Enterprise-D has the first official encounter with them. Even if their whole civilization had heeded Archer's threat for a full two centuries, this wouldn't have prevented Starfleet from finding out about them. It may have been a bit more acceptable, still very contrived, if the Ferengi of this episode had said, in a side note, that they were a long way from their home planet. On the other hand, only a few weeks ago in "Dear Doctor", they have already been explicitly mentioned to be in contact with the Valakians. Although it was probably supposed to be the same ship in both episodes, it would suggest that Ferengi are already notorious within the (rather narrow) range of Enterprise. Moreover, one of the Ferengi mentions a "Bolian female" to Krem in the end. So they already know the Bolians, but the Bolians won't report about them when they join the Federation? Finally, the fact that the Enterprise crew prevails and would be able to scan their databanks gives the death blow to all awkward attempts to excuse the continuity breach, because this should reveal everything important about them (at the very least what they are called). "Admiral, you need to warn all Starfleet ships of these, err, guys whose race name I neglected to find out."
So, to summarize. There were too many contacts for the Ferengi to be that much a mystery by the 24th century.
And as for the Cardassians... you're right. I haven't yet found any first contact info with them. They may have been known by Kirk's time. We can't really say wat was known then with only 3 seasons of material to draw from.
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There were too many contacts for "The Last Outpost" to make any sense even if we just take TNG and beyond. Vash was hanging around with Ferengi who wasn't Rom for years before 2361, Quark was happily running the bar on DS9...it baffles the mind that the Ferengi went from the mysterious force they were in "The Last Outpost" to comical capitalists in the space of about 3 years.
"Defiant" does make mention that the Military, Obsidian Order and Detapa (or similar) council set-up had been in place for centuries, and implies that it hadn't changed much in that time.
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Registered: Mar 1999
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Re Frengi: Yes, it's the early days of TNG that are the problem here, and I'm not sure I see why we should insist it is correct at the expense of everything else when, for instance, we do not insist that the Federation formed during TOS.
Re Cardassian history: That's one datapoint. In whatever the Picard torture two-parter was called, though, the torturer talks about how rough things were for him as a child before the military came to power. I suppose in this case we should probably let DS9 references hold the most weight, in the same way nobody cares about TNG Trill.
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Good points, Sol. After their introduction, the Ferengi were made out to have been around for a long time. Quark ran the bar on DS-9 during the occupation, for example.
And yeah, the Trill are "a bit" different than first introduced.
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2. Though she is a singular individual and doesn't represent all German women (contrary to the Cardassian saying that Cardassian women liked Bolian skin), I'll nonetheless withdraw the point, because . . . in case I have failed to point this out . . . Ilse Koch was an evil bitch.
3. Gul Dukat does state in "Defiant"[DSN3] that the military and Obsidian Order both theoretically answer to the Detapa Council (though in practice both handle their own affairs), and that this arrangement has been in place for five hundred years.
I'm not sure if it constitutes a contradiction with the TNG ep, given that most of what we got was implication only. (Besides, I'm more ticked that DS9 always showed Cardassians of the past in the same triangular uniforms, instead of those blocky ones from "The Wounded". And there was no funny facial hair. And no goofy helmets.)
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
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Re: 2. Do we know that Cardassians actually skin Bolians in order to get Bolian skin? It doesn't seem like a necessary step in the process, not in the 22nd century.
Re: 3. The military could probably "come to power" even without shaking the time-honored triumvirate of Cardassian government, merely by taking a more active role within the existing framework.
Also, while Gul Madred in clear words says that he believes the military (and specifically the military takeover) is making Cardassia a better place to live, we do not know whether his miserable childhood happened before or after the military takeover.
For all we know, Cardassia used to be EVEN WORSE before Central Command started conquering neighboring planets. Madred could merely be making a point that the conquest must be continued because there is still so much to do, because there still are starving children on Cardassia DESPITE the ongoing campaigns.
Agreed about that uniform peeve. Then again, Cardassians "in the past" were not from such a distant past, except when the time travel was due to Orb hallucinations and thus potentially faux. Gul Macet might simply have been wearing a style out of style for the past ten years or so, his ship being a run-down, combat-weary wreck from the not-so-glorious Twenty-Nine-and-Halfth Order.
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Or it could be that Macet's ship was special in some way... Special ops, maybe his specific order/batallion had their own uniforms?
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quote:Originally posted by Timo: Re: 2. Do we know that Cardassians actually skin Bolians in order to get Bolian skin? It doesn't seem like a necessary step in the process, not in the 22nd century.
Agreed. Maybe it's just a name. Like Bloodwine or Hot Dogs.
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Registered: Nov 2001
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Well, Kassiday Yates did get some Tholian silk once. I do doubt the sentient Tholians create the silk themselves. They might, but I doubt it..
So you could stretch and say Bolian skins refers to animal skins from Bolia. Easer to say than Bolian Tiger Skins or whatnot.
Perhaps a non-human would say the same about imported animal skins from Earth. I got some Earth skins or Human skins... Instead of referring to Lions and Tigers and Bears (oh my).
Part of the problem is the naming of planets vs. the people. Humans are from Earth. Vulcans, however, are from Vulcan, Cardassians are from Cardassia, Bajorans from Bajor, etc...
Klingons being the only other race off the top of my head who don't share the same name as their homeworld.
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