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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Community » The Flameboard » So, um, where ARE these WMDs? (Page 16)

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Author Topic: So, um, where ARE these WMDs?
First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

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Yes, but it's a lot harder to prove lying in the trysts case... you're not going to find the equivalent of a stained dress here.

If you say a falsehood based on your possession of inaccurate information, it may be wrong, but it's not lying.

If, on the other hand, you possess accurate information, but say a falsehood not based on that information, that's lying.

But that's not going to be easy to prove, given the many contradictory claims on the quality of the intel - and worse, the fact that the folks on the intelligence committees, some of whom are Democrats, who have access to their OWN sources of info, agreed with the quality of the intel enough to vote for the force resolutions.

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"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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The problem is. . . everyone's partisan to one degree or another. Whenever there's some sort of political argument in this Forum, both of the sides that develop, usually Rob on one side, Snay on the other, can quite happily categorise any cited sources of information as either Stuff I Agree With, Which Is Totally Right or Well, They're Not Exactly Non-Partisan Are They?

Likewise, when the Republican and Democrat parties were formed, it wasn't on opposing platforms of whether to invade Iraq or not. It is possible for Democrats to want to invade Iraq just as much as, say, the Omegas of this world do, and for all the same reasons, whatever they may be. So the same Democrats Rob mentions could be equally guilty as the President of any wrongdoing, and pointing at them and saying "well, they did it too!" wouldn't be much of a defence.

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Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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Wraith
Zen Riot Activist
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quote:
Yes, but it's a lot harder to prove lying in the trysts case... you're not going to find the equivalent of a stained dress here.


Well, you never know...

"...and would you care to explain how you got the Anthrax stains on your dress, Mr Hussain?"

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"I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw

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Kosh
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quote:

If you say a falsehood based on your possession of inaccurate information, it may be wrong, but it's not lying.

If you seel someone something based on that false information, then you are responsable.

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Sparky::
Think!
Question Authority, Authoritatively.
“Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see.”
EMSparks


Shalamar:
To save face, keep lower half shut.


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Kosh
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Go to Google.com, type in weapons of mass destruction, and hit "I'm feeling Lucky", you get:

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

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Sparky::
Think!
Question Authority, Authoritatively.
“Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see.”
EMSparks


Shalamar:
To save face, keep lower half shut.


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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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Right bach atcha:
http://somethingawful.com/nointelligence/index.htm

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,996920,00.html

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Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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First of Two
Better than you
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Tenet's taking the blame? Maybe he'll resign. Bush shouldn't have left a Clinton appointee in that office, anyway.

So Brit Intel is claiming that there's still other extant information on Iraq trying to get uranium from africa. Hm.

I have wondered about the "forged" Nigerian documents. The implication when they're talked about is that the US forged them, but according to the descriptions of the forgeries, I rather doubt this. They don't sound like a professional job, and if our Intel wanted to forge something, I've no doubt that they could do better.. at least get the right names of the people in charge at the time.

But if they didn't, who did? Maybe someone in Nigeria wanting to discredit the government? Maybe a neighboring country?

I heard someone on talk radio blame the French, but that's silly, IMHO.

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"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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So it's either Tenet's fault because as a Clinton appointee he failed to have the necessary pull with Bush to stop him using the information, or because as a Clinton appointee he deliberately didn't strop Bush using the information to make him look stupid? Well, it's nice to know it's not just the left that have the monopoly on any conspiracy theory that'll fit the facts.

I'm not sure how I feel about this one, I haven't really formulated an opinion. Britain is standing by the info but saying it came from some other, unnamed, intelligence service (or "Mossad" for short - kidding. . .); Powell didn't trust it enough to mention it more than once; Tenet should have stopped it either through cowardice or maliciousness; and the end result is Bush once again didn't do himself any favours, much like the "Axis of Evil" references that many Washington insiders have since said didn't do them a lot of favours as far as relations with other countries went. It's weird.

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Never mind the Phlox - Here's the Phase Pistols

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Veers
You first
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Have you wondered, Fo2, where the White House got the report from in the first place? Are you wondering where the White House picked out a piece of intelligence on uranium from Africa and put it in a speech, despite the fact that it was known to be false in March 2002 and that the State Department warned it was bogus in September and the CIA told Bush not to mention it in an October speech in Ohio? Yet, they still picked out the report to use in the State of the Union.
Do you not find that odd?

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Meh

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First of Two
Better than you
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*electronic breathing*
I find your lack of cites disturbing.

What intelligence agency took them at face value and passed them to the UK and the USA? Which country has a monopoly on uranium production in Niger and which country had the most to gain by these reports being proven false?

Fake document tied to Niger Embassy

Tipping Points

Check out that last paragraph...

quote:
The intelligence officials offered a tantalizing coda for conspiracy-mongers. They said the "crude forgery" received by U.N. weapons inspectors suggesting the Iraqis were trying to buy uranium from Niger as part of their nuclear program was originally put in intelligence channels by France. The officials wouldn't speculate on French motives.

Maybe it's not as silly as I thought...

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"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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Veers
You first
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Yes! The French! That's it! They are the ones who have manipulated this thing from the start! They are misleading us! They are trying to discredit Bush and try and say Iraq had no WMD! They must've taken the Weapons of Mass Destruction too, because they are not in Iraq! It is the only logical conclusion!!!
Onward to Paris! Destroy, destroy!

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Meh

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First of Two
Better than you
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I should have known you wouldn't have anything of substance to respond with.

Why is it with you that when the US is accused of anything under the sun, it's automatically true, but if anybody even suggests France might have done something untoward, you get all reactionary?

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"The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword

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bX
Stopped. Smelling flowers.
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The truth is out, how embarrasing. The Nigerian evidence:
quote:
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 15:44:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Doctor Clement Okon
To: [email protected]
Subject: YOUR OUR ONLY HOPE!!

From: Dr. Clement Okon
Plot 33 Nicholas Crescent, V/I.
Lagos-Nigeria.

DEAR SIR,

REQUEST FOR URGENT BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP

FIRST, YOU HAVE BEEN CONTACTED BECAUSE YOU HAVE CONSISTENTLY SHOWN THE ADMIRABLE QUALITIES OF DISCRETION AND SHREWD BUSINESS ACUMEN THIS UNDERTAKING WILL REQUIRE. WHICH IS TO SAY THAT I MUST SOLICIT YOUR STRICTEST CONFIDENCE IN THIS TRANSACTION. THIS IS BY VIRTUE OF ITS NATURE AS BEING UTTERLY CONFIDENTIAL AND 'TOP SECRET'. I AM SURE AND HAVE CONFIDENCE OF YOUR ABILITY AND RELIABILITY TO PROSECUTE A TRANSACTION OF THIS GREAT MAGNITUDE INVOLVING A PENDING TRANSACTION REQUIRING MAXIIMUM CONFIDENCE. MY NAME IS DR CLEMENT OKON AND I REPRESENT THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE FOR BUDGET AND PLANNING OF THE THE MINISTRY OF PETROLEUM AND MINERAL RESOURCES HERE IN LAGOS NIGERIA. THE RECENT DEATH OF OUR MILITARY DICTATOR GENERAL SANI ABACHA REQUIRES THAT WE PROCURE THIS TRANSACTION WITH GREAT HASTE BEFORE THE OPPORTUNITY PASSES.

WE ARE TOP OFFICIAL OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CONTRACT REVIEW PANEL WHO ARE INTERESTED IN THE EXPORTATION OF CERTAIN HIGHLY VALUABLE GOODS FROM OUR COUNTRY WHICH ARE PRESENTLY TRAPPED IN NIGERIA. IN ORDER TO COMMENCE THIS BUSINESS WE SOLICIT YOUR ASSISTANCE TO ENABLE US TRANSFER INTO YOUR STORE THE SAID TRAPPED COMMODITIES.

THE SOURCE OF THESE COMMODITIES IS AS FOLLOWS; DURING THE LAST MILITARY REGIME HERE IN NIGERIA, THE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS SET UP PROGRAMMES TO EXTRACT AND REFINE CERTAIN ORES WHICH WOULD THEN BE UTILIZED OR DISTRIBUTED BY THE VARIOUS MINISTRIES. THE PRESENT CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT SET UP A CONTRACT REVIEW PANEL AND WE HAVE IDENTIFIED A EXCESS OF CERTAIN HIGHLY VALUABLE COMMODITIES WHICH ARE PRESENTLY RESTING IN THE VAULTS OF THE CENTRAL BANK OF NIGERIA READY FOR EXPORTATION.

HOWEVER, BY VIRTUE OF OUR POSITION AS CIVIL SERVANTS AND CERTAIN INTERNATIONAL RESTRICTIONS, WE CANNOT EXPORT THESE COMMODITIES DIRECTLY TO OUR EAGER CUSTOMER (WHO ASKED THAT I NOT REVEAL HIS IDENTITY, BUT SUFFICE IT TO SAY HE IS A MAN WITH A GREAT DEAL OF INFLUENCE IN THE MIDDLE EASTERN REGION, THAT HE WEARS A THICK MOUSTACHE OFTEN WITH A BERET, AND THAT HIS NAME RHYMES WITH "RUB-ON DISDAIN"). I HAVE THEREFORE, BEEN DELEGATED AS A MATTER OF TRUST BY MY COLLEAGUES OF THE PANEL TO LOOK FOR AN OVERSEAS PARTNER WHO MIGHT IMPORT THESE 24,000 KG OF ENRICHED URANIUM ORE AND HOLD THIS CARGO FOR SOME MONTHS WHILE ARRANGEMENTS FOR OUR CUSTOMER'S IMPORT ARE MADE. A REWARD OF US$1,320,000.00 (ONE MILLION, THREE HUNDRED AND TWENTY THOUSAND U.S DOLLARS) HAS BEEN APPROVED BY MY PANEL FOR THE PERSON OR ENTITY PERFORMING THIS VALUABLE SERVICE FOR OUR TROUBLED COUNTRY. HENCE WE ARE WRITING YOU THIS LETTER. WE HAVE SELECTED YOU BECAUSE YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY PROVEN YOUR TRUSTWORTHINESS AND INTEGRITY, AND ALSO YOUR SYMPATHY TOWARDS OUR CONTINENT'S WAR-RAVAGED POPULOUS.

PLEASE,NOTE THAT THIS TRANSACTION IS 100% SAFE AND WE HOPE TO COMMENCE THE TRANSFER LATEST SEVEN (7) BANKING DAYS FROM THE DATE OF THE RECEIPT OF THE FOLLOWING INFORMATIOM BY TEL/FAX; 234-1-7740449, YOUR ORGANIZATION'S SIGNED, AND STAMPED LETTERHEAD PAPER THE ABOVE INFORMATION WILL ENABLE US WRITE LETTERS OF CLAIM AND JOB DESCRIPTION RESPECTIVELY. THIS WAY WE WILL USE YOUR ORGANIZATION'S NAME TO APPLY FOR PAYMENT AND RE-AWARD THE CONTRACT IN YOUR NAME.

WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO DOING THIS BUSINESS WITH YOU AND SOLICIT YOUR CONFIDENTIALITY IN THIS TRANSATION. PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THE RECEIPT OF THIS LETTER USING THE ABOVE TEL/FAX NUMBERS. I WILL SEND YOU DETAILED INFORMATION OF THIS PENDING PROJECT WHEN I HAVE HEARD FROM YOU.

YOURS FAITHFULLY,

DR CLEMENT OKON

NOTE; PLEASE QUOTE THIS REFERENCE NUMBER (VE/S/09/99) IN ALL YOUR RESPONSES.



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"Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42

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Veers
You first
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Fo2: Wait...I'm confused. Don't you discredit every report that says Bush lied/misled us? You have dismissed just about everyone as "false evidence", or blamed Bill Clinton, or just ignored the evidence altogether. And you are now suggesting the uranium claim is a French plot to discredit Bush.
Aren't you ALSO guitly of the things you accuse me of?

And, you've failed to adress the fact that the Bush Administration was warned that the uranium info was false, yet still included it in the speech, and then blamed it on Tenet.
Yes, Tenet should not have cleared the speech. But Bush & co. should not have put it in if they were warned it was false. Why would they do it? They were "not informed?"
And, if we want to bring up the fact that the Brits believe the claim to be correct, I'll pose one question: What happened to the fact that the US and the UK are the most close-knit intelligence sharers in the world?

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Meh

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