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Author Topic: The Fort Pillow Massacre ... and other Civil War debates
Malnurtured Snay
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We haven't had a good historical "smash and bash" in a bit, so I figured, why not? Let's try and keep this relatively free of personal attacks.

* Did a state prior to the Civil War have a right to leave the Union?

* Assuming a state did, in the case of Tennessee, did the state legislature act inappropriately?

* Was the reason for the war "State's Rights" or "Slavery"?

* In light of Fort Pillow and other similar incidents, why does the North have the reputation of being the side of atrocity?

* Were the Confederate leaders traitors to the United States?

Pick one, throw up another related discussion ... but most important, discuss!

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MinutiaeMan
Living the Geeky Dream
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It's too late for me to write a competent argument right now, but I will take the opportunity to toss out a counterpoint... the Andersonville Prison in Georgia.

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“Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov
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TSN
I'm... from Earth.
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"Were the Confederate leaders traitors to the United States?"

Well, by definition, yes. The real question is whether or not treason is always a bad thing.

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Malnurtured Snay
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I should clarify. Fort Pillow was a Union held fort, occupied by pro-Union Tennessee troops (many former Confederates), and a large group of black soldiers. Gen. Forrest surrounded the troops and offered a truce. When the terms of the truce were rejected (Union reinforcements were expected at the Fort within the hour), Forrest overran the Fort, and massacred many of the surviving Union troops. From the placement of the bodies, they looked to have been executed rather than killed in combat. Also, it was later reported by a Union sympathizer that the Fort's commander had been assassinated, and not "killed while trying to escape" as the Confederates reported.

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Wraith
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quote:
* Did a state prior to the Civil War have a right to leave the Union?
Did a colony have the right renounce the authority of the Crown and Parliament and to leave the Empire?

quote:
* Was the reason for the war "State's Rights" or "Slavery"?

State's rights with slavery as the catalyst. I'm not at home now so I can't check but didn't Lincoln say something along the lines of "If I could save the Union by freeing all the slaves I would do it, if I could save the Uniuon by freeing none of the slaves, I would do it and if I could save the Union by freeing some slaves and leavings others as they are I would do it" Which seems to imply that the welfare of African Americans wasn't exactly at the top of the US govts agenda.

Incidently, hs anyone read the excellent Battle Cry of Freedom, by James McPherson?

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Malnurtured Snay
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quote:
Did a colony have the right renounce the authority of the Crown and Parliament and to leave the Empire?
No.

quote:
State's rights with slavery as the catalyst. I'm not at home now so I can't check but didn't Lincoln say something along the lines of "If I could save the Union by freeing all the slaves I would do it, if I could save the Uniuon by freeing none of the slaves, I would do it and if I could save the Union by freeing some slaves and leavings others as they are I would do it" Which seems to imply that the welfare of African Americans wasn't exactly at the top of the US govts agenda.
The Confederate states were motivated by what they saw as a growing movement in the North to end slavery. This included declarations in states such as Massachussets that slavery was unConstitutional.

Yes, that is a Lincoln quote.

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Wraith
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quote:
The Confederate states were motivated by what they saw as a growing movement in the North to end slavery. This included declarations in states such as Massachussets that slavery was unConstitutional.
Yeah, I know; just cos I'm notAmerican doesn't mean I don't know anything about the American Civil war [Razz] [Big Grin] . The Confederates were particularly worried by the Federal government limiting the spread of slavery by the Missouri compromise and other measures.

quote:
Yes, that is a Lincoln quote
Yeah, looked it up when I got home; August 22, 1862.

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"I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw

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Wraith
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quote:
The Confederate states were motivated by what they saw as a growing movement in the North to end slavery. This included declarations in states such as Massachussets that slavery was unConstitutional.
Yeah, I know; just cos I'm notAmerican doesn't mean I don't know anything about the American Civil war [Razz] [Big Grin] . The Confederates were particularly worried by the Federal government limiting the spread of slavery by the Missouri compromise and other measures.

quote:
Yes, that is a Lincoln quote
Yeah, looked it up when I got home; August 22, 1862.

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"I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw

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MinutiaeMan
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quote:
Originally posted by Snay:
The Confederate states were motivated by what they saw as a growing movement in the North to end slavery. This included declarations in states such as Massachussets that slavery was unConstitutional.

Well, that's the funny thing -- approaching the issue from both directions can be considered correct. And I guess that's part of the reason why the American Civil War is such a contested issue even today.

I can point out a number of converging issues that caused the actual confict:

� The vast majority (and I do mean vast) of Southern wealth was holed up in the form of slaves by the late 1850's. I attended a lecture by Dr. James Horton a couple of weeks ago... I don't have an exact figure, but the value of the slaves, both in terms of purchase price (at the auction, for example) and in terms of labor value and output in the Old South, actually exceeded the wealth of the North. Freeing the slaves meant a huge financial loss for the South as a whole.

� In the Federal government, the Old South was the central power, especially in Congress, from the very beginning. Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe... is it any coincidence that four of the first five Presidents were Southerners? Even into the 1850's, the South controlled the vast majority of the Senate.

But... with the growing anti-slavery movement, the so-called "free" states were increasingly outnumbering the slave states. Any American student should know about the Missouri Compromise of 1820, keeping a precise and equal balance of slave and free states up until 1850, when California was admitted.

The South was increasingly marginalized, both in terms of population (outnumbered by Northerners) and in political power.

� A lot of people forget (or gloss over) the Dred Scott decision of 1858. Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger Taney was a Southerner (South Carolina, I think, though I could be wrong). If one single event outside of the actual firing of shots could be considered a cause of the war, it'd be this decision -- mainly because the Court's ruling made it an all-or-nothing deal. Basically, Taney ruled that the Federal government could not limit slavery AT ALL, anywhere in the country, because a man could not be denied his property. Of course, it was a blatantly racist argument that completely infuriated the Abolitionists and many Northern states... basically, rather than glossing over the issue or continuing a compromise, the Dred Scott decision forced a conflict then and there.

� Did anyone know that the United States was one of only THREE COUNTRIES IN THE ENTIRE WORLD in which slavery was legal in 1863? I'm not sure which were the last two, but even Russia -- Tsarist Russia, for cryin' out loud! -- had abolished slavery in 1861.

~~~~~

I could go on rambling for hours on this stuff, but I'd better stop before I get carried away. [Wink]

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Veers
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I recently read that there are a few towns in Georgia that still have segregated proms. I'm not talking about there are certain proms that certain races just don't attend, I mean actual segregated proms.
The US has got a long way to go to get over our racial strife.

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Meh

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Wraith
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quote:
Did anyone know that the United States was one of only THREE COUNTRIES IN THE ENTIRE WORLD in which slavery was legal in 1863? I'm not sure which were the last two, but even Russia -- Tsarist Russia, for cryin' out loud! -- had abolished slavery in 1861.
Only three? I knew it wasn't many but didn't know it was that few. Mind you, the Russian abolishion of serfdom wasn't entirely successful; the consequences of it played a major part in the revolution- not a good thing!!

Veers: Really? Isn't that illegal now?

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Veers
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I think it's a tradition that they've just kept up...but I don't think that blacks would be allowed to come to a white prom, and vice versa. I know some people want to change that down in Georgia, but some don't mind...

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Meh

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Jason Abbadon
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Mabye it's just that the ENTIRE civil war was a total cluster fuck grom the word "go" and most of the generals on both sides had no place commanding a damn thing.
Look up the north's biggest fuck-up, General Burns.
They should have shot him and saved 12,000 lives.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
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Ritten
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And, to back Veers up is this little tidbit

Rural Georgia High School to Continue Segregated Prom


quote:

WRIGHTSVILLE, Ga. -- Students at a central Georgia high school held separate proms for whites and blacks this year, maintaining a dying practice in the rural South.

"It's always been like that," said Carla Rachels, 17, a Johnson County High School senior who helped organize Friday night's whites-only prom. "We don't see it as a big deal." Parents paid for the separate proms.

Taylor County, another rural area 90 miles west of Wrightsville, held an integrated prom last year, but added a separate whites-only prom this year.

After integration in the late 1960s, separate proms were common in the rural South, but Johnson and Taylor counties are among the last to cling to the practice.

Johnson County native and former professional football star Herschel Walker urged an end to segregated proms.

"Today I wish things would change a little bit," said Walker, who visited last week when the high school football field was named in his honor. "This world is changing so much. Coming after the war we just had, I think people can see we are a country, we are together."



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"You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus
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A leek too, pretty much a negi.....

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Cartman
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2003. Racial segregation. Apartheid. Welcome to the 21st century!

Fuck.

There are times I hope humanity never leaves this solar system.

[ May 15, 2003, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]

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