Topic: The Fort Pillow Massacre ... and other Civil War debates
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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
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martha stewart is very nearly as mean as an islamic fundamentalist.. and her shoe bombs would be better made (and better accessorized)
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
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It's implicit that God's laws as stated in the Bible are not necessarily the truth, which is the assumption I'm making.
Who says there is only one Truth?
...which is not forcing beliefs on people, it's forcing actions on people.
Actions that led to beliefs.
You're saying that slaveholders two hundred years ago forced Christianity on people of today? That's reaching, and you know it.
No, it's a DIRECT CONSEQUENCE of converting a people by force.
Registered: Nov 1999
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You really think slaves were treated well? Slaves were not treated well (historically) by anyone. Ever.
That's... and amazing display of ignorance.
You really think that just because the new owners of thsese slaves were Hebrew that they were better off?
Spiritually, yes. Physically, probably. Israel was for a time a very rich country, and at the very least they'd have a guarentee of not being beaten to death.
I made the alalgy with America;s slavery of Africans because they used that same bible to justify all their brutality.
Hmm... so your chain of reasoning is something like: American slavery claimed it was based on Hebrew slavery; American slavery was wrong; therefore Hebrew slavery was wrong. The problem is that your reasoning is based on the idea that American slaveholders were correct when they claimed their breed of slavery was the same as the Hebrew kind of slavery. I'm arguing that it's not.
And as you pointed out: God would know whats going to happen, so why give slavery of any kind the big thumbs up?
Depends on what would have happened otherwise, yes?
If Buhddaists came and enslaved your family, then sold you to Islamists, what would you say? It's OK'd by your god after all.
Not unless I was a POW in a war my God told them to start. You're missing the circumstances under which slaves could be taken.
Who says there is only one Truth?
Logical laws against contradiction?
Actions that led to beliefs.
So you're saying that by making people go to church, you make them believe what they hear there? Somehow I doubt the slaves were that weak-minded.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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quote:Originally posted by Omega: You really think slaves were treated well? Slaves were not treated well (historically) by anyone. Ever.
That's... and amazing display of ignorance.
Site some examples of when a person is enslaved and is better off than them being free. Plaese.
quote:You really think that just because the new owners of thsese slaves were Hebrew that they were better off?
Spiritually, yes. Physically, probably. Israel was for a time a very rich country, and at the very least they'd have a guarentee of not being beaten to death.
Spiritually? How so? Slaves were not going to be free to follow their own beliefs and worship openly. Your argument is biased on your own beliefs that the hebrew God is the truth.
quote: I made the alalgy with America's slavery of Africans because they used that same bible to justify all their brutality.
Hmm... so your chain of reasoning is something like: American slavery claimed it was based on Hebrew slavery; American slavery was wrong; therefore Hebrew slavery was wrong. The problem is that your reasoning is based on the idea that American slaveholders were correct when they claimed their breed of slavery was the same as the Hebrew kind of slavery. I'm arguing that it's not.
That is your argument, but you still can't explain how being opressed in any way (slavery being the most extreme case) is better than being free to prusue your own goals and beliefs.
quote:And as you pointed out: God would know whats going to happen, so why give slavery of any kind the big thumbs up?
Depends on what would have happened otherwise, yes?
They would have maintained their own culture and they and their children would have lived free? It's not as though all POW's were either enslaves or killed in that region: the Greeks kept slaves but allowed POW's to swear an oath of fealty to them and then released them. That was over 1000 years prior to mono-theism.
quote:If Buhddaists came and enslaved your family, then sold you to Islamists, what would you say? It's OK'd by your god after all.
Not unless I was a POW in a war my God told them to start. You're missing the circumstances under which slaves could be taken.
If your God is the only god then all wars that are said to be the will of god are endorsed by your god. Islamic jihad as well.
quote:Who says there is only one Truth?
Logical laws against contradiction?
Burden of proof is on those trying to prove something's exixtance (in this case your God). Scientifically, you can't prove a negative: you can't prove you're not in a coma dreaming all this, for example.
quote: Actions that led to beliefs.
So you're saying that by making people go to church, you make them believe what they hear there? Somehow I doubt the slaves were that weak-minded.
Not weak minded: Just exposed to only one sourse for spirituality over 200 years.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
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Logical laws against contradiction?
See, THAT statement makes ME believe you're an ignorant bigot who can't think outside his christian box of self-righteousness. Please prove me wrong, Logic Boy.
Do you concede the possibility that 1) The Whole Truth comprises more than one Truth, and if so, that 2) christianity does not hold The Whole Truth?
Hint: don't answer "no" to question #1.
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
Registered: Nov 1999
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Site some examples of when a person is enslaved and is better off than them being free. Plaese.
It was stated that slaves have never been treated well, which I responded was not true. Your question is not related to that.
Spiritually? How so? Slaves were not going to be free to follow their own beliefs and worship openly. Your argument is biased on your own beliefs that the hebrew God is the truth.
Which, again, is the basis of my entire argument. Please pay attention.
That is your argument, but you still can't explain how being opressed in any way (slavery being the most extreme case) is better than being free to prusue your own goals and beliefs.
I'm not arguing that. I've pointed out multiple times that freedom was not an option for those foreigners the Hebrews took as slaves.
If your God is the only god then all wars that are said to be the will of god are endorsed by your god.
That was... again, utterly moronic. Just because I SAY a war is the will of God doesn't mean it IS.
Burden of proof is on those trying to prove something's exixtance (in this case your God).
Again, wasn't the question. The question was why there couldn't be more than one truth, not one of whether mine was the one truth.
Do you concede the possibility that 1) The Whole Truth comprises more than one Truth, and if so, that 2) christianity does not hold The Whole Truth?
For varying definitions of a truth. In the context of the discussion, I assumed you meant religious truth, in which event the truth of Hindu, say, and the truth of Christianity would be mutually contradictory and can not both be true.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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This is almost interesting, if it wasn't so pointless.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
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"In fact, the white slavers made their participation in church services the only non-degrading part of their lives."
Being forced to follow someone else's religion seems pretty degrading to me...
"Slaves that were bought from foreigners passing through the country were better off with a Hebrew master than with their foreign master, so buying one would actually be a good thing for them."
This is the same as saying that the man who tortures someone slightly less painfully than the previous torturer is doing something good for his victim.
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You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.
When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt. (7) If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's and he shall go out alone. But if the slave declares, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out a free person, then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; (8)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out (9) as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; (10) he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people since he has dealt unfairly with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish the food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife. (11) And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out without debt, without payment of money.
(This one sucks) When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property.
-------------------- "You are a terrible human, Ritten." Magnus "Urgh, you are a sick sick person..." Austin Powers A leek too, pretty much a negi.....
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
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They all suck.
For varying definitions of a truth. In the context of the discussion, I assumed you meant religious truth, in which event the truth of Hindu, say, and the truth of Christianity would be mutually contradictory and can not both be true.
No, I meant The Whole Truth, which has ONE definition but consists of multiple individual Truths. Re-read.
Registered: Nov 1999
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This is the same as saying that the man who tortures someone slightly less painfully than the previous torturer is doing something good for his victim.
Yes, it is. But what if the new owner can't afford to release the slave, due to the loss of capital it would represent? Buying the slave and treating him well might simply be the best he can do for them.
I meant The Whole Truth, which has ONE definition but consists of multiple individual Truths.
*blink blink*
What, you're asking whether Christianity coveres general relativity? I'd say that's a dumb question.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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Well, since we're heading into a mad discussion hinging on the definition of "THE TRUTH," I thought I'd drop in and offer:
First of Two's Incontrovertible Maxims Regarding "THE TRUTH (all caps.)"
#1. I don't know what "THE TRUTH" is.
#2. You don't, either.
#3. Anybody who claims to know "THE TRUTH," probably wants something from you. If you're lucky, it will only be your money. They are probably a con artist. Worse, they could be a "true believer." Shoot first.
-------------------- "The best defense is not a good offense. The best defense is a terrifyingly accurate and devastatingly powerful offense, with multiply-overlapping kill zones and time-on-target artillery strikes." -- Laurence, Archangel of the Sword
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Omega: [QB] This is the same as saying that the man who tortures someone slightly less painfully than the previous torturer is doing something good for his victim.
Yes, it is. But what if the new owner can't afford to release the slave, due to the loss of capital it would represent? Buying the slave and treating him well might simply be the best he can do for them.
Wow. I'm sure jesus would be down with that.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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Seeing as the one commandment of Christianity is "Love everyone", I believe Jesus would be down with someone doing the best they can for all involved. A man was supposed to love his slaves as anyone else, and releasing a slave would obviously be good for the slave under most circumstances, but the owner is also supposed to love his family. What if by releasing the slave he condemns his family who he also loves to starve to death? He has to find a balance between doing what's good for the slave and doing what's good for his family, all of them being people he loves.
As for First's observations, if you don't know the truth, how can you state that I don't? You have no basis for comparison. And I want nothing from you, I want good FOR you. But why do you want us to shoot you?
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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