posted
General Burnside I think you meant to say Jason.
quote:* Did a state prior to the Civil War have a right to leave the Union?
There was, and still is, no Constitutional mechanism to deal with this issue. However, the Articles of Confederation states that the Union was a permanent thing, and the Peramble to the Constitutions referrs to a more perfect Union.
It is clear that the concept of a union between the several states as written in the Constitution comes from the Articles of Confederation and should be a permanent institution. As such, leaving a Union so constituted would, I think, require more that the vote of the state wishing to leave.
quote:* Was the reason for the war "State's Rights" or "Slavery"?
There is no single reason for the American Civil War. Both of the above were underlying causes of huge importance.
quote:* In light of Fort Pillow and other similar incidents, why does the North have the reputation of being the side of atrocity?
The North never lacked for supplies or manpower and yet many Confederate prisioners of war needlessly died in Norhtnern prision camps because their basic needs were not met.
The Union Army was an army of invasion and occupation and caused financial hardships by looting, freeing slaves, taking food and provisions, and burning Atlanta.
quote:* Were the Confederate leaders traitors to the United States?
Yes, they took up arms agains the constituted and legal government.
But it turns out that Washington and others from the Revolutionary War were traitors as well because they took up arms against the constituted and legal government. Many in the south understood the connection and lauded it.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
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posted
Ah. Yes I meant Burnside (it was a late posting for me).
An equally valid question about STate's Rights ia why they still exist at all? After the war's conclusion it was very likely a touchy subject that was let slide but today those same "rights" really fuck with many laws changing from state to state.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote: The North never lacked for supplies or manpower and yet many Confederate prisioners of war needlessly died in Norhtnern prision camps because their basic needs were not met.
I seem to remember that certain Confederate POW camps were somewhat less than luxury establishments; Andersonville Prison (Which MM mentioned earlier) in particular.
quote:It is clear that the concept of a union between the several states as written in the Constitution comes from the Articles of Confederation and should be a permanent institution. As such, leaving a Union so constituted would, I think, require more that the vote of the state wishing to leave.
But the US constitution also enshrines the idea that the people are the ones who decide their own destiny; surely if a majority of the population of a state votes for secession (which did NOT happen in any of the Confederate states) the the US govt, by the principles it claims to uphold, would be obliged to go with the decision?
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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quote:surely if a majority of the population of a state votes for secession (which did NOT happen in any of the Confederate states)
Actually, Tennessee did hold a vote for the general population. However, by a margin of 10,000 they voted to remain in the Union. Not this stopped their state government from secession anyway ...
posted
Well, ok; none of the Confederate states had a popular vote which was actually followed.
Better
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
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quote:caused financial hardships by looting, freeing slaves, taking food and provisions, and burning Atlanta.
Waiting for supply lines was impossible for Sherman -- a quick end to the war meant ordering his troops to forage for what they needed so as to facilitate faster movements. Atlanta was a major production point for the South -- destroying it, and preventing its recapture, would cripple the Confederate war machine and bring them to their knees. When Sherman occupied Savannah on December 22nd, "mercy ships" from the North brought supplies to the populations.
When Confederate agents crossed through Canada into New York City, and deliberately fire-bombed hotels, they were knowingly targeting civilian populations for death.
quote:I seem to remember that certain Confederate POW camps were somewhat less than luxury establishments; Andersonville Prison (Which MM mentioned earlier) in particular.
Yes, that is true.
There is no question that Andersoville was a terrible place and its commander, who was hanged at the end of the war, bore some responsibility. But the Confederacy had terrible supply problems thoughout the war and their main focus was on maintaining a fighting force and supplying it rather than prisioners of war.
The same sort of things happened in the North only there was no shortage of supplies.
Also bear in mind that Grant and Lincoln stopped prisioner exchanges forcing the Confederates to keep prisioners they had captured casuing them to further dilute their supplies.
quote:But the US constitution also enshrines the idea that the people are the ones who decide their own destiny; surely if a majority of the population of a state votes for secession (which did NOT happen in any of the Confederate states) the the US govt, by the principles it claims to uphold, would be obliged to go with the decision?
The reason for entering into a union of the several states was for mutual protection, security, and stability. None of which could be had if, say Texas decides to leave the Union just because it wants to. The creation of the Union was not lightly debated and the delegates from the several states had to understand that they were giving up some autonomy for that collective stability and security.
The creation of the American federal system forces the states to do certain things and requires interdependence. If Texas was attacked by Mexico, California could not withold its citizens in defence.
If the Union is a permanent institution, as stated in the Articles of Confederation and as reaffirmed by the Constitution, then I don't see it as unreaslistic to require the deliberation of the several states for a state wishing to leave the Union to be allowed to do so.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
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posted
I suppose it's somewhat ironic that the idea of secession was probably started, or at least helped along in the early years, by Thomas Jefferson himself.
During the bitter partisan fighting of the late 1790's, the Federalist party controlled the Presidency and both houses of Congress for four or six years. During this time the Federalists passed such wonderfully enlightened laws as the famous Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798.
In protest, Jefferson authored the Kentucky Resolutions, which got their name when they were adopted by the Kentucky state legislature. Basically, they stated that the several states had the authority and duty to declare null and void any law which was contrary to the Constitution. The possibility of secession was raised during the same crisis.
Ironically, just a few short years later, Justice Marshall issued the decision on Marbury v. Madison and set up the entire judicial review process in a relatively short, ten-page (or so) decision. A decade later, a retired Jefferson expressed deep regret for even encouraging the concept of nullification and secession, realizing its potential for chaos among the states. It took the Civil War to finally settle the issue...
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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posted
If the Union is a permanent institution, as stated in the Articles of Confederation and as reaffirmed by the Constitution, then I don't see it as unreaslistic to require the deliberation of the several states for a state wishing to leave the Union to be allowed to do so.
Agreed. If several parties sign a contract, no one of them can unilaterally declare the contract void, as a general rule. An ammendment to the Constitution would seem to have been in order. Which, naturally, would never have passed.
Actually, Tennessee did hold a vote for the general population. However, by a margin of 10,000 they voted to remain in the Union. Not this stopped their state government from secession anyway ...
Yeah, the Tennessee state government has a long-standing tradition of saying to its constituants, "Screw you, we'll do what we please."
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
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quote: When Confederate agents crossed through Canada into New York City, and deliberately fire-bombed hotels, they were knowingly targeting civilian populations for death.
Wow and your government is still using the "Terrorists came through Canada" argument.
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posted
I knew it! It's all fucking Canada's fault! Everything is!
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
quote:Mike (telling a joke): ...and the drunk guy says, "I can't help being an idiot, I'm Canadian!" Crow (Laughs): You're right, they're so pathetic, Mike!
(Whistle blows, Tom comes in wearing Mountie uniform)
Tom: Enough! There's been too much Canada-bashing for far too long! I say: no more! Mike: Don't you mean: "No more, eh"? Crow (Laughs): Good one, man! They are SO stupid! Tom: Stop it now! Instead, let us offer our Northern brothers and sisters this song of tribute!
(Music starts)
(Singing) Oh, I wish I was back in old Canada, A land which I never shall lampoon! How I pine for the ice covering Lake Manitoba, And the beauty that is Saskatoon!
Mike (spoken): I got one.
(Singing) Oh, I wish I was stuck in the hills of Alberta, Drinking beer with some big dumb guy trapping fur!
Tom (spoken): Hey!
Mike (singing): As he scraped and chiseled all the moose dung off his boots, I would learn that he's the Prime Minister!
Tom (spoken): Oh, stop that!
Crow (singing): Oh, I wish I was in the land gave us Peter Jennings, Alanis Morissette, Mike Myers, too!
Tom (spoken): Yeah!
Crow (singing): No, I take that back, I wouldn't go there even if you paid me, Oh, Canada, you are a place I must eschew!
Tom (spoken): Now, this is NOT in the spirit I intended! Mike: Oh, come on, give in! I mean, after all, they gave us Ed the Sock and Rush! Crow: Yeah, what are you defending? They're such feebs! Tom: Okay, I'll try! Mike: All right! Good man! Tom (singing): Oh, I wish I was blowing up Prince Edward Island, And going on to bomb Ontario! The destruction of Canada and all of its culture, Is by far my fav-o-rite scenario!
Mike (spoken): Okay, that's a little strong... Tom (interrupting, spoken): No, no, you were right, Mike, this is much more fun!
(Singing)
Just where the hell does Canada get off sharing a border With countries far superior to it?
Crow (spoken): Yikes!
Tom (singing): Why, you lousy, stinking, francophonic, bacon-loving bastards, Your country's just a giant piece of sh...(Mike leaps on Tom and covers his mouth with his hand, while he and Crow shout "Hey! Whoa! Whoa!")
Mike (spoken): I think that's enough. I think we've... Cambot, (Music stops) okay, thanks. All right. Tom (sobbing): I'm sorry! I have no sense of proportion! I'm a disgrace to my uniform! Mike: No, no, that's okay, calm down. Mustn't hate! Mustn't hate! Crow: At least so overtly. Mike: Exactly, right. Must disguise our hate, just a little. .
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
I did not recall that they namechecked Ed the Sock in that song. Huh. It is a small world, pop culturally speaking.
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