Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
"Just as a Pentagram or an inverted cross have diffrent meanings to diffrent people, some symbols, once associated with evil become irrevocably tainted in our collective view."
Yeah, but the difference is that there are still people alive today (like my grandparents) who got a real close look at those evils when the swastikas were being brandished openly. That's not something you erase overnight.
"So, what it represents to one large group (people who think of it as a Nazi symbol) is more important than what it represents to another large group (people who think of it as a religious/spiritual symbol)?"
More important? No. More sensitive? Yes. You want to read PCness into that, be my guest.
quote:TSN SAID: I would like to know whether the swastikas in the font were clockwise or counter-/anti-clockwise, and whether the arms are horizontal/vertical or diagonal.
Actually, I can answer that. I have Office 2003, and the orientation was indeed, clockwise - however, the feet of the swastika were at the poles ... north, south, east and west, rather than squared as in the Nazi symbol.
The buddhist symbol - is INVERTED, as in, anti-clockwise - My chinese friend showed it to me in one of his buddhist texts!
As for whether or not i was at wwII is not relevant here. I am still sensitive to what occured to the jews - and disgusted with the things that Hitler did..
We have to remember that it would be like someone taking the symbol of the cross and using it as their flags totem - and that leader causing millions of deaths... but later condemning the cross because of that one man's vision - and forgetting the religious symbolism that it represents...
~ Cry Havoc - and let slip the dogs of war!
Registered: Nov 1999
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
The point I'm making must be getting lost in cyberspace, because it sure as hell isn't coming across here.
Recap: I'm NOT saying the swastika should be purged from human history, I'm saying that for some people (namely those who were around between '33 and '45 and still are TODAY) the things it stood for during that period hit MUCH closer to home than whatever other denotations the symbol may or may not have do for the spiritual among us, capiche? Everybody on the same page now? THANK YOU.
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Ok.. I see yer point - and i agree with you! Granted, there is a degree of sensitivity involved here - NO DOUBT! But at the same time, (devil's advocate) i don't think it should be removed from a font list because of it...
I will add here - as an asside .. that the Letter "I" was the Star of David in the same font!
Do we remove that too?
Again - i'm not being argumentitive... just interested in the opinions.. i find it an interesting debate.
~ Cry Havoc - and let slip the dogs of war!
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
No, neither should be removed, and yes, a line obviously has to be drawn somewhere, but I do think the swastika's darker associations are still too fresh in people's minds to treat it like any other symbol just yet.
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
How would you propose we treat it differently from other symbols?
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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"The buddhist symbol - is INVERTED, as in, anti-clockwise..."
I may be misinformed, but I believe that, historically, the swastika has been used in both forms (probably meaning different things to different groups). The Nazis, I think, used only the clockwise version. Also, while the diagonal version is probably the most widely associated with them, they also used the vertical/horizontal version. I don't know if other groups ever used it diagonally.
"...it would be like someone taking the symbol of the cross and using it as their flags totem - and that leader causing millions of deaths..."
Like the popes, you mean?
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Actually, this swastika thing has come up before. There was a Pokemon card released in Japan that had the buddhist symbol used as a background for one of the characters. When it was imported to the west, the image was flipped (as is common when translating Japanese stuff to English. It wasn't necessary in this case, but they were probably just doing it for every image). Anyway, on the US card, the background image ended up showing, yes, the Nazy swastika. And this was used by various religious groups to show how Pokemon was turning kids into Satanists, by, er, promoting Nazism. Or something.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I think it's a holdover from manga. Japanese is read right to left, so when comics are converted from Japanese to English, the pages are flipped, so that they read in a way that is easily understandable for Westerners. At some point, the people doing the cards must have gotten it into their heads to do it for them as well.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Cartman: No, neither should be removed, and yes, a line obviously has to be drawn somewhere, but I do think the swastika's darker associations are still too fresh in people's minds to treat it like any other symbol just yet.
I agree the memory is far too fresh to become an arbatrary shape, but the time will hopefully come when we view the Nazis with the same kind of "Humans were so dumb back then" attitude that we do the Inquisition.
Of course, my own family lost many members to both groups of fanatics. We dont relocate well or something, I guess.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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As far as I can tell, that isn't universally true. Apparently, it was written right-left before WW2, and now it's written both ways. If that's true, then I would think that some, if not all, Japanese comics would be left-right, and therefore inverting them would be unnecessary. So I wouldn't think they would just automatically invert everything that comes out of Japan.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I just look at the pictures in Japanese magazines. Usually they involve women dressed as schoolgirls.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
How would you propose we treat it differently from other symbols?
quote:Try to understand how laden that symbol is...
...the time will hopefully come when we view the Nazis with the same kind of "Humans were so dumb back then" attitude that we do the Inquisition.
If history and current events are any indication, not this century.
Registered: Nov 1999
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