quote:Originally posted by Wraith: . . . telling the king of England that affairs within his own realm were his problem, not the Pope's.
Pun intended?
quote:I am always amused when Protestants I know claim adamantly that Catholics are not Christians
I think that what people are refering to when they do this is the whole salvation through faith alone thing. Catholics believe salvation is through faith joined with good works, protestants (most, anyway)in salvation through faith alone.[/QUOTE]
If I may add and clarify, and I would have to check my Chatechism to be sure, I believe current Catholic teachings acknowledge salvation is only through the grace of God (thus, a faithful Catholic can accurately argue his or her faith allows for the salvation of all persons as salvation ultimately depends on God('s grace(not one's religion, etc.)). Where I believe (good) works comes in is with the often forgotten, but still "official," Catholic concept of purgatory. For those who are not familiar with purgatory, a simple explanation is this: it is the "place" one goes after death "where" one's soul is cleansed before "entering" heaven. If one has spent his or her life performing good works, for goodness sake, not for the purpose of passing Peter and the pearly gates faster, presumably such a soul requires less cleansing and will, indeed, reach heaven quicker than say one of those scam televangelists. Perhaps some of you have also heard of indulgences; purgatory is where they come in. If I am remembering correctly a few years ago the Pope offered indulgences, in simple terms, less time in purgatory, for smokers who gave up the habit.
I am sorry if I have bored anyone.
As a religious person I appreciate when the subject of religion can be discussed without (complete) contempt and ridicule. Thank you.
The letters of Paul are undoubtedly 100 percent divinely inspired; however, maybe he did not like hats. If God started inspiring me to write his word the Book of Raw Cadet might, in its final version, end up including things like "take your crying babies or whiny brats to the cryroom," and "turn your cell phone off during mass." Thus, I could be divinely inspired even if the resulting product includes some parts not of divine origin.
By the way, and, actually somewhat related to the original topic, today my hometown (or the county it is in, actually) became the latest government institution to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. As my state is one of the few that does not explicitly state marriage is only a union between one man and one woman the legality of the issuing is seemingly on much more solid ground than in San Francisco, so it could be interesting to see what happens.
Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
"If God started inspiring me to write his word the Book of Raw Cadet might, in its final version, end up including things like 'take your crying babies or whiny brats to the cryroom,' and 'turn your cell phone off during mass.' Thus, I could be divinely inspired even if the resulting product includes some parts not of divine origin."
...and thus, not 100% divinely inspired.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
60% divinely inspired, 40% copped from older religions in the region.
How does the Pope offer purgatorial indulgences? Didint Martin Luther have issue with just that kind of scam?
I recall some minor strife resulted.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
quote: How does the Pope offer purgatorial indulgences? Didint Martin Luther have issue with just that kind of scam?
I recall some minor strife resulted
I suppose that's one way of putting it...
I think the main problem Luther & co. had with purgatory is that it isn't mentioned in the Bible and appears to have been made up at some point by a Pope. It was seen as a bit off that people could get X years off their soul's time in purgatory by donating money to the church (often in wills to have prayers said for their soul by monks). Luther himself wanted to reform the church rather than split with it but the Catholics cracked down and later generations of Protestants became rather more fractuous. Which is where you get Calvin and Knox and so on. Not to mention the French Wars of Religion. And, of course, the English reformation and Elizabethan Church Settlement(A work of genius, BTW). Which then led to the Council of Trent and the Catholic Reformation (aka Counter Reformation) and Mission England and all that. Wasn't the 16th century fun?
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
Well...the Pope at the time was in need of cash to complete some gradndious building (the Bassilica?) and was offering paper notes of indulgence for sins (adultry being one of them) in exchange for church contributions.
This pissed off Martin Luther no end. Thus began The Reformation....it "reformed" thousands right to death.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: 60% divinely inspired, 40% copped from older religions in the region.
Of course, if those older religions were divinely inspired the percentage increases.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: How does the Pope offer purgatorial indulgences? Didint Martin Luther have issue with just that kind of scam?
I recall some minor strife resulted.
Nothing we could not handle. Today I believe indulgences are offered, period; that is, the Pope offers an indulgence (at large) for giving up a certain behavior. I can only recall it happening once during my lifetime.
Scam? Now, now, if you are referring to the past indulgences most certainly involved poor intentions on both sides [Church earns money; sinner "buys" his way into heaven (as if)]. However, (I believe) it is wrong to call a contemporary indulgence a scam (if, indeed, you were. Again, if you are only refering to the abuses of Martin Luther's time I grant you that.)
Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: [qb] 60% divinely inspired, 40% copped from older religions in the region.
Of course, if those older religions were divinely inspired the percentage increases.
Divine indeed: I think Rimat Ninsun Wildcow inspired the "Noah's Arc" story. At least as far back as the epic of Gilgamesh, anyway.
I dont think current indulgences are a scam per se but I cant believe that the Pope had a vision of Christ explaining this great deal on quitting smoking either.
Of course the pontiff is rather old so....
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
quote:What is an indulgence? "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."[81] "An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."[82] Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.
So some church doctrine is supposed to dictate policy in the afterlife? I like that "indulgences can be applied to the dead" part. Mabye if I give the church enough cash I can do whatever I want and get a good seat next to Mother Theresa. Does anybody really believe this stuff?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Does anybody really believe this stuff?
Yes.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Mabye if I give the church enough cash I can do whatever I want and get a good seat next to Mother Theresa.
No. I would like to believe if you gave the Pope a blank check in exchange for moral carte blanche he would refuse. And, if he did not, I do believe the big bank in the sky would refuse to cash your indulgences.
In over a dozen years of Catholic school I was never told my eternal salvation can be purchased (because it cannot). What I was told is that it has already been earned; my goal is to live a life worthy of it ("worthiness" being determined by a well developed conscience). It is about striving for perfection, not a ledger of how many wrongs you can do because you have done x amount of rights.
We Catholics have an important saying: it is the rite, not the minister. For example, if one is confirmed [a sacrament of the Church] by an altar boy abusing, collection basket bilking bishop, the confirmation is not any less valid than one performed by God him-/her-/it-self, provided the one confirmed is faithful and honest in his reasons for seeking confirmation. Likewise, on the flip side, a priest pure as the driven snow, in whose mouth butter would not melt, could not make cannot make valid a rite entered into for the wrong reasons on the part of the partaker.
I apologize if I have hijacked this thread; as a Catholic apologist I have a hard time resisting any bait.
Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic