quote:Originally posted by Nim: I think what TSN may have meant was that your tone, Jason, seems to suggest that the deaths of Iraqi civilians, if caused by the insurgents or US troopers with bad aim, is regrettable but not the fault of the US, whereas the majority of the world understands that every open-conflict casualty (Iraqi, american and european) since the start of the invasion is the responsibility of the US/UK since you came in uninvited and arbitrarily rewrote the rules of conduct.
Regardless of whether that's what TSN meant, it's pretty much spot on. It is the US/UK's fault since they said "bugger everyone else, we're going to war, we're not afraid like you".
In actual truth it's not about bravery, it's about brains - everyone else is more sensible/smarter by staying out of the conflict. It would have been better on the whole if the US & UK had waited and joined the entire UN in the attack rather than put themselves out on a limb. But then that wouldn't have happened because there are no WMD, are there!?! And that's why they went in against everyone else's wishes, on the falsehood of removing the WMD that don't exist! Try getting out of that one Bush/Blair.
-------------------- If you cant convince them, confuse them.
Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:A substantial portion of the world's democracies were imposed by outside force.
Such as?
Sorry, shouldn't have said force; outside powers would be more accurate and applies to (most) of the former colonies. Of course, not all of those democracies survived- Iraq being a prime example of one which didn't.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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Ah yes, they had it for a while there, some generations ago. But in the words of Sideshow Bob, "deep down inside you secretly long for a cold-hearted Republican to lower taxes, brutalize criminals, and rule you like a king". (WOAH, also appliez > US. w00t.)
-------------------- "I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!" Mel Gibson, X-Men
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I always thought it was interesting how the Republican Party on The Simpsons seemed more diverse than the Democrats: a Jewish clown, an immigrant action movie hero, and a black doctor who is also a member of MENSA. (It seems not all Rs are stoopid.) Plus everyone's favorite industrialist officiating and an evil genius voiced by real-life R Kelsey Grammer. Hmmm...
-------------------- "Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Tao to survivial or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed."
"...attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 6th century B.C.E.
Registered: May 1999
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posted
What I find it interesting how the Republican Party on The Simpsons seems more diverse than the Republican Party of real life.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
It's not like Republicans haven't tried. This from Jay Nordlinger:
quote: J. C. Watts is retiring, and the media and other Democrats are having a field day saying there are no black Republicans left in Congress. Not a-one!
But let�s sober them up a little. What�s never mentioned is that, whenever we field a black candidate, the Democratic party moves heaven and earth to defeat him. We�ll have a black nominee somewhere: and the Democrats will make sure to stomp him like a bug, probably hinting, or outright saying, that the guy�s a Tom anyway.
Indeed, I believe Democrats work all the harder to defeat black Republicans, because they believe that such individuals violate the laws of nature: God intended for blacks to be Democrats, and to vote Democratic, and the Democratic party is to be the sole protector and representative of blacks. Period.
I remember when Gary Franks � a black Republican � was a congressman from Connecticut. The Democrats were extra keen on defeating him, because he stood, in part, as a rebuke to them. And, by golly, they did.
This leads to another memory: of Doug Wilder�s historic run for governor of Virginia. During that campaign, it was said, from coast to coast, that Wilder would be �the first black governor since Reconstruction.� This was said over and over again. It was implied, everywhere, that it was the duty of Virginians to elect him. If they didn�t, they would have spat in the face of history, and proven themselves . . . racist.
Well, well. It so happens that, shortly before, we Michiganders had a black nominee for governor: Bill Lucas. He was a Republican. And I never once heard that Lucas would be �the first black governor since Reconstruction.� There was no national excitement � which is to say, no media excitement � about him. And would it be entirely inappropriate to add that, where strict color was concerned, Lucas was a helluva lot blacker than Doug Wilder?
But he was, of course, a Republican, and therefore considered illegitimately black. He was soundly defeated by a white liberal politician named James Blanchard.
And no one cared. And they probably shouldn�t have. But the contrast � between the Lucas race and the Wilder race � was striking, never to be forgotten.
So, guys: No black Republicans in Congress? Is the Democratic party willing to step aside and let those Republicans win? Are you kidding? And, of course, they shouldn�t. But they should be a lot less smug about this �no blacks in Congress� thing.
Did Republicans rub it into the faces of Democrats that the only black senator since Reconstruction, for years and years, was a Republican (Ed Brooke of Massachusetts)? I don�t remember. But I doubt it.
Now, Nordlinger is an unabashed partisan, though he makes an effort to be realistic. That said, I think he makes a good point here.
I have also heard it said that there is a generational shift happening among blacks (though the shift began many many years ago). Once the baby boomers are off the scene, politics will look very different. I had a professor who clerked for Justice Thomas who said he could see such a dynamic happening too.
So while I concur that there isn't as much pigment in the crowd on the right, it's beginning to change. Don't count on things staying the same.
-------------------- "Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Tao to survivial or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed."
"...attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 6th century B.C.E.
Registered: May 1999
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posted
Just a couple of things regarding the righty Opinion Journal piece....
quote:� Society. A free and democratic election in January will mark a symbolic transition of Iraq from the dictatorial past towards a more hopeful future.
That's certainly the hope, but I find it interesting that this is put out front of an article purportedly about things that are actually going good in Iraq.
The election hasn't happened yet, so wishful thinking doesn't count.
And regarding a free and democratic election in January, here's what Dondald Rumsfeld had to say about that:
quote:"Let's say you tried to have an election and you could have it in three-quarters or four-fifths of the country. But in some places you couldn't because the violence was too great," Rumsfeld said at a Senate Armed Services Committee (news - web sites) hearing.
Put the two together and you get a country where things are too violent to have an open election throughout the country. Democracy on the march.
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quote:The Electricity Ministry is aiming to increase power production to 25,000 megawatts over the next five years. After years of neglect and violence, the electricity infrastructure in Iraq is in such state of disrepair that, according to ministry estimates, it might require somewhere between $30 billion and $50 billion to fully upgrade the grid to modern standards. Foreign governments are already assisting, with the United Arab Emirates agreeing to speed up its contribution of $215 million toward rebuilding Iraqi power system.
According to my poor calculations, $215 million is .43% of the estimated upper cost of $50 billion. One wonders, when one considers who is footing the bill for the vast majority of Iraq reconstruction why the United Arab Emirates contributing .43% of 50 billion is such a sign of success.
Moreover, the IMF or the World Bank aren't the ones paying for all this. The United States is taking on huge deficits to rebuild Iraq and to write a sunshine and optimism story about Iraqi infrastructure that leaves one with the impression that the international community is footing larger amounts of the bill than they are, is, well, not the reality.
And, speaking of reconstruction, one has to ask why things like this are happening:
quote:Bush, in Shift, Taps Into Emergency Iraq Funds
By Adam Entous
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Pentagon (news - web sites) has begun tapping into its $25 billion emergency fund for the Iraq (news - web sites) war to prepare for a major troop rotation and intense fighting this fall, administration officials said on Tuesday, despite the White House's initial insistence that it had enough money.
The Pentagon has already used more than $2 billion from what the White House dubbed its "contingency reserve" fund for Iraq. The money is being used to ramp up production of armored Humvees to support the troop rotation, as well as to buy body armor and bolster fuel supplies, the officials told Reuters.
The decision to use the $25 billion in Iraq reserves underscores concern within the administration about the rise in anti-American violence in Iraq.
The decision follows last week's announcement that President Bush (news - web sites) plans to divert nearly $3.5 billion from Iraqi water, power and other reconstruction projects to improve security.
The White House had initially asserted it would not need additional war funding until January or February, 2005 -- well after the November presidential election.
----
*Emphasis added.
Yes, things are going so good, the Administration felt it necessary to dip into an emergency contingency fund and has to transfer money away from reconstructing Iraqi infrastructure -- electricity and water -- and put it into security.
----
quote:Israelis and Palestinians will be able to use their cell phones in Iraq without switching networks, thanks to a roaming agreement reached between the Israeli company Cellcom and Kuwaiti-owned Asiacell, which supplies cellular phone services to Iraq.
For all those Israelis that plan to vacation in post-invasion Iraq, that piece of good news could not have come at a better time.
----
Despite Mr. Bush�s sunshine policy and pictures of Bechtel painting Iraqi schools, I think to say that the current situation in Iraq is anything but precarious is wishful thinking.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I'm sorry, but as evidence to support your contention that Republicans are trying to be a 'big tent' party, you cite a story lamenting the fact that Democrats actually oppose Republicans, even black Republicans, in elections?
That the good point is that of the 535 members of Congress, there are no black Republicans simply because Democrats actively sought to defeat them?
And a former clerk for one of the most conservative judges around hardly makes for an un-biased report of a sea change in ethnic makeup of political parties.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
What I'm sensing in your complaint about the lack of uniformly free elections throughout Iraq is that the result would be illegitmate, undermining the seed of republicanism we have planted in that country. Lee Harris makes a good point on how neither side has characterized the nature of legitimacy correctly. An example would be the reconstruction governments in the south after the American Civil War. Though there were federal troops securing the Union-installed officials, the people still held those governments to have enough legitimacy in their own time to govern.
As for the UAE, it's a sign of success because another Muslim nation decided to help. No, their contribution pales in comparison to the cost we are footing, but for them I'd bet that's a lot of money to donate, and they're going out on a limb to help us and Iraq rebuild. You point out their money is small potatoes. Yes. But that aid is still a victory.
The point of the Nordlinger article was to illustrate why there are no Republicans who are black, not why they are not represented in that party in perfect symmetry with the population. I think it still counts as a bigger tent than you are giving it credit for when they have (unsuccessfully) tried to elect them.
As for the comment about Justice Thomas's clerk, I heard the same from some of the flaming liberal professors at my school too. There're articles on it too that I'm too tired to find now. I'm not saying it's huge, all I'm saying is that it's growing.
-------------------- "Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Tao to survivial or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed."
"...attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 6th century B.C.E.
Registered: May 1999
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quote:What I'm sensing in your complaint about the lack of uniformly free elections throughout Iraq is that the result would be illegitmate, undermining the seed of republicanism we have planted in that country.
You can't really call it democracy then can you?
At least not a Western-style, reform-oriented, democracy which is, correct me if I'm wrong, the model for this experiment.
As a side note, this talk about we invaded Iraq to democratize it bugs me. The right speaks about the current misadventure in Iraq as if it is the vanguard of a humanitarian / democratization foreign policy. I don't see that as the case at all.
That may be the case among the smallish cabal of Neocons hijacked this Administration, but it certainly wasn't presented to the American people as such. Rather, democratization, strikes me as a post-invasion justification put forth when primary reasons for pre-emptive invasion were thought to be untenable with the American people.
Remember, this was a pre-emptive invasion. Were we pre-emptivly bringing democracy to Iraq?
Anyway....
As for the seed of republicanism, mine is a wait and see approach.
Will Mr. Allawi become a strongman, which far from out of the question? And if he does, what will the United States do?
And, don't forget, they have already shown a predisposition to curtail particular freedoms that the West holds as essential fee societies to function...specifically freedom of the press.
So, we'll have to wait and see.
quote:An example would be the reconstruction governments in the south after the American Civil War.
An interesting analogy.
As I recall, the people of Georgia sent Alexander Stephens, the former Vice-President of the Confederates States of America, back to Congress. I wonder, if in the spirit of true democracy, the powers that be would allow former high-ranking members of the Ba'ath Party back in power.
[ September 27, 2004, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote: That the good point is that of the 535 members of Congress, there are no black Republicans simply because Democrats actively sought to defeat them?
And given that only around 30 House seats are competative, it looks even worse; are there no black Republican congressmen because the Democrats make special efforts to defeat them, or because the Republicans only field them in seats they stand no chance of winning?
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Wraith, no argument with you on the lack of competitiveness in most districts. I think Charlie Cook actually has reduced his number of competitive seats from 30 to 18. It's had some good effects (more proficient legislators and fewer newbies fighting a learning curve their first term) and some very bad effects (candidates drifting to firing the base, not inspiring consensus). As for district-by-district analysis of each race over the decades, that I can't give you. I know a little bit about political history, but I'm no Michael Barone. However, we're starting to see more black candidates running. Off the top of my head, I would say the Lt. Governor in Maryland (and Republicans never win there period). The Texas delegation to the convention had a pretty large black contingent. Secretary of Education Rod Paige was elected the head of the equivalent body in Houston. I know there's a black running for state senate in Minnesota this year. (That one could happen. MN has been trending right the past 4 years.) A lot of people want Condoleeza Rice to go for governor in California after Arnold is gone. These are just the ones that I know of casually. So I would say that there have been successes and losses. I don't see a big conspiracy by The Man to keep them down. (Of course, another issue entirely is hispanics, which are still heavily D. Bush might lose Colorado this time around because of it. But that's an issue too complicated to start now.)
-------------------- "Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Tao to survivial or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed."
"...attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 6th century B.C.E.
Registered: May 1999
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posted
Jay, I was wondering if something was wrong with your computer. Nothing was in your post there for a while. Otherwise I would have put this in the above post.
I wouldn't call it a democracy taken lock-step from the one in the United States. That's why the current government is called the Provisional Authority. Everyone complains that we shouldn't be trying to transplant America to the Middle East. Well, we're not. We're developing it one step at a time. A lot of the criticism centers around what "democracy" is. Everyone has different meanings for it in mind. It might be more useful to say we are increasing the degree of democracy there. Just like we are increasing the degree of legitimacy there by the baseline behavior of Iraqis toward their government. I won't deny that the government is still weak in areas like Falluja, but but that doesn't mean the prospect is doomed. It just means we need to perservere.
As for Alexander Stephens, yes, he was a Confederate. But he had accepted the authority of the US and submitted to it, demonstrating he felt the new government was legitimate. Those governments also elected lots of blacks and Republicans who were capable and able administrators. If one example of past opposition to core principles the nation stands for is all it takes to eliminate the government's legitimacy, then we're screwed since West Virginia still elects Robert Byrd, who was a member of the Ku Klux Klan years before.
I know I'm repeating myself, but you're conflating the justifications for the war with talk of "pre-emptive democracy." (Although, I got to say, Jay, that is one cool phrase!) Here are the justifications properly stated again (and cleaned up from a previous post):
1. Change the regime of Saddam Hussein and help Iraq transition to democratic self-rule 2. Pre-emptively find and eliminate weapons of mass destruction or the ability to resume programs to develop them 4. End economic sanctions and deliver humanitarian support to a starving population 5. Prevent further assassination attempts against the leaders of our country 6. Enforce international law embodied in more than 10 UN resolutions condemning Iraq�s flouting of the armistace signed and agreed to after the first Gulf War 7. Prevent further assistance to terrorist groups (e.g., Abu Nidal, Hamas) 8. Frighten wavering states into stopping support of terrorists and abandoning their WMD programs (whether that happened is contended, though I have read your evidence to the contrary)
Not all of them were treated with the same rigor as each other in the media. WMDs stole the show because Colin Powell thought it was the best of the several. That doesn't mean the others were never presented at some point to someone who was keeping track of all the possible jusitifications.
-------------------- "Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Tao to survivial or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed."
"...attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 6th century B.C.E.
Registered: May 1999
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posted
Yes, but the lawyers over at the State Department wanted it that way. Colin Powell convinced Bush to make it the primary justification. It doesn't mean there weren't others.
Perchance, what does "IIRC" mean? Forgive me.
-------------------- "Warfare is the greatest affair of state, the basis of life and death, the Tao to survivial or extinction. It must be thoroughly pondered and analyzed."
"...attaining one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the pinnacle of excellence. Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence."
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 6th century B.C.E.
Registered: May 1999
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![[Frown]](frown.gif)
But then that wouldn't have happened because there are no WMD, are there!?! And that's why they went in against everyone else's wishes, on the falsehood of removing the WMD that don't exist! Try getting out of that one Bush/Blair. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
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