-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Despite what Niall Ferguson says (or may say; I've only seen him speak on TV), I don't think you can blame all the problems of postcolonial states on benevolent empires who just needed some more time to make things nice, darn it.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Jay the Obscure: North Korea gets a shrug... Who knows what�s happening with Iran... The Darfur situation gets called a genocide and then nothing gets done about it... Russia lays a smack-down on democracy and the United States does nothing... Afghanistan is so unstable that when Hamid Karzai leaves Kabul, it�s headline news... So this line that we are in Iraq for peace, love, and democracy is, in my opinion pure spin. My guess, with no evidence to support it, is that once WMD weren�t found, Administration polling said the next best thing is going with the democracy bringing angle.
Yes...it's disturbing is it not? Almost as disturbing as all the people that both condemned the US/UK for not adhering to UN guidelines and NOW condemn the US/UK for not also solving all those other UN sanctioned issues as well. You cant have it both ways Jay, and the US cant be everywhere either.
Really, the administration chose Iraq because they foolishly thought they could easily accomplish something and be heroes or whatever but the UN's complete apathy towards- well, everything- has done shit since then to stem the problems you sited. How many resolutions do you really think the murdered in the Sudan care about? Kofi's sure not calling for the military action needed to stop the killing. It's not popular this season.
If the world really wants the US and UK (or any of the major military powers) to play by UN guidelines, they'll need to eliminate the Security Council and it's veto power completely: currently the UN has no teeth because one or more of the SC powers always has vested intrest in preventing military (even for humanitarian) action.
I was listening to Kerry's security advisor the other day (on NPR) nad he pointed out that since the UN's founding, there have been over 300 wars fought worldwide and the UN has voted to approve of two. He also pointed out that some of the SC members intrest lies in opposing any action not UN sanctioned (regardless of justification) because it undermines what little say they still (militarially) have in world affairs.
I'm not voting for Bush either but it's quite possible we'd be in Iraq even if he was never elected: Clinton sure has been supportiove of this war from the start (and he dealt with Saddam longer than any one president). Going in was pure politics and it backfired- we might get a new president as a result, but to say that the ideals of "peace, love, and democracy is, pure spin" is to limit motivations to the current administration only.
Thousands of troops, voters and Iraqi's are in it for the same reasons.
How do you propose to make a change for the better in Iraq -accomplish the sarted mission- no matter how misguided- once Kerry is in office? Really, I'm intrested in hearing your views.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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"Almost as disturbing as all the people that both condemned the US/UK for not adhering to UN guidelines and NOW condemn the US/UK for not also solving all those other UN sanctioned issues as well."
I don't think anyone's saying Bush should have invaded the PDRK or Iran instead of Iraq. We're saying that his claim of "making America safer" is undermined by the fact that he chose to invade a country that was less of a threat than those others.
In other words, he should have minded his own damn business. But if he absolutely had to invade somewhere, Iraq was not the place that made the most sense.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: How do you propose to make a change for the better in Iraq -accomplish the sarted mission- no matter how misguided- once Kerry is in office? Really, I'm intrested in hearing your views.
Well, crap. Where did I put that paycheck the Kerry campaign is giving me to advise them on foreign policy?
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Hey, you're a voter-same as everyone: if you cant tell Lurch what to do, who can?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
And besides, what I'm saying is that this whole misadventure in Iraq has been one colossal screw-up. Nearly all of which is the fault, in whole or in part, of Mr. Bush and his administration.
Remember back in 2000 when people were saying, �well, Mr. Bush ain�t all that bright but things will be ok, he'll surround himself with thoughtful reasoned people.� Well, how�d that turn out? Mr. Bush still ain�t all that bright, he makes unthoughtful decisions based on advice from the ideologues he�s surrounded himself with, makes no attempt to gather information from outside his crony bubble, and then lives in a fantasy world when reality refuses to meet expectations.
I�ll tell you something else, if Mr. Kerry is elected, at least we�ll stop having our foreign policy dictated by the likes of these bozos.
All in all, I�d say this Administration is comprised of a bunch of incompetent fools at the highest levels. If it weren�t for the fact that we apparently now live in some strange mirror universe where they are not responsible for any of the incompetent, foolhardy things they�ve done, they�d be thrown out on their collective ear.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:NOTEBOOK How Much U.S. Help? The Bush Administration takes heat for a CIA plan to influence Iraq's elections
By Timothy J. Burger; Douglas Waller
Monday, Sep. 27, 2004 President Bush and interim Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi insisted last week that Iraq would go ahead with elections scheduled for January, despite continuing violence. But U.S. officials tell TIME that the Bush team ran into trouble with another plan involving those elections � a secret "finding" written several months ago proposing a covert CIA operation to aid candidates favored by Washington. A source says the idea was to help such candidates � whose opponents might be receiving covert backing from other countries, like Iran � but not necessarily to go so far as to rig the elections. But lawmakers from both parties raised questions about the idea when it was sent to Capitol Hill. In particular, House minority leader Nancy Pelosi "came unglued" when she learned about what a source described as a plan for "the CIA to put an operation in place to affect the outcome of the elections." Pelosi had strong words with National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice in a phone call about the issue.
quote:...this sort of behavior by the Bush administration fatally undermines the ideal of democracy in the Middle East. If Muslims think that "democracy" is a stalking horse for CIA control of their country, then they will flee the system and prefer independent-minded strongmen that denounce the US.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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Apparently, "career professionals within national security agencies" dispute the general findings of Mr. Chrenkoff, linked to in another post.
The officials seem to think things are not going so well in Iraq.
quote:Growing Pessimism on Iraq Doubts Increase Within U.S. Security Agencies
By Dana Priest and Thomas E. Ricks Washington Post Staff Writers Wednesday, September 29, 2004; Page A01
A growing number of career professionals within national security agencies believe that the situation in Iraq is much worse, and the path to success much more tenuous, than is being expressed in public by top Bush administration officials, according to former and current government officials and assessments over the past year by intelligence officials at the CIA and the departments of State and Defense.
While President Bush, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and others have delivered optimistic public appraisals, officials who fight the Iraqi insurgency and study it at the CIA and the State Department and within the Army officer corps believe the rebellion is deeper and more widespread than is being publicly acknowledged, officials say.
People at the CIA "are mad at the policy in Iraq because it's a disaster, and they're digging the hole deeper and deeper and deeper," said one former intelligence officer who maintains contact with CIA officials. "There's no obvious way to fix it. The best we can hope for is a semi-failed state hobbling along with terrorists and a succession of weak governments."
"Things are definitely not improving," said one U.S. government official who reads the intelligence analyses on Iraq.
"It is getting worse," agreed an Army staff officer who served in Iraq and stays in touch with comrades in Baghdad through e-mail. "It just seems there is a lot of pessimism flowing out of theater now. There are things going on that are unbelievable to me. They have infiltrators conducting attacks in the Green Zone. That was not the case a year ago."
This weekend, in a rare departure from the positive talking points used by administration spokesmen, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell acknowledged that the insurgency is strengthening and that anti-Americanism in the Middle East is increasing. "Yes, it's getting worse," he said of the insurgency on ABC's "This Week." At the same time, the U.S. commander for the Middle East, Gen. John P. Abizaid, told NBC's "Meet the Press" that "we will fight our way through the elections." Abizaid said he believes Iraq is still winnable once a new political order and the Iraqi security force is in place.
Powell's admission and Abizaid's sobering warning came days after the public disclosure of a National Intelligence Council (NIC) assessment, completed in July, that gave a dramatically different outlook than the administration's and represented a consensus at the CIA and the State and Defense departments.
-------------------- Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war. ~ohn Adams
Once again the Bush Administration is worse than I had imagined, even though I thought I had already taken account of the fact that the Bush administration is invariably worse than I can imagine. ~Brad DeLong
You're just babbling incoherently. ~C. Montgomery Burns
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Yeah....bush has screwed the pooch. Now, how to unscrew it?
Debate tonight should be intresting: it's make or break for Kerry (and hope for improvment for all of us, really).
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Despite what Niall Ferguson says (or may say; I've only seen him speak on TV), I don't think you can blame all the problems of postcolonial states on benevolent empires who just needed some more time to make things nice, darn it.
Well, no not all of them. Just most. And obviously I'm not counting all those who had to put up with the French, Dutch and the various other Continentals.
And Niall Ferguson's arguements are essentially along those lines, although slightly more complicated. Although he has also said that the US should've nuked China during the Korean war.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Whata cheery fuck-o.
It was only a mild lapse; the rest of the book is pretty good, although slightly more political (and hence not quite as good) as Empire.
-------------------- "I am an almost extinct breed, an old-fashioned gentleman, which means I can be a cast-iron son-of-a-bitch when it suits me." --Jubal Harshaw
Registered: Feb 2002
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Yeah...just a slight lapse into advocating nuclear anihilation of millions of people.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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Nonono, what you do is you file it under "strategically sound" in the rationalizing centra of your brain, then you order the porter steak. Learn from the masters.
-------------------- "I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!" Mel Gibson, X-Men
Registered: Aug 1999
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