posted
I guess I was misinformed as to Reno's job. Thanks for the correction.
I don't have many set views when it comes to foreign policy, actually, but I'm hardly isolationist. I just don't believe we should stick our noses in other people's internal affiars.
As for international law, what's the law when the surviving parent is a citizen of a country where he can NOT legally have custody? I seriously doubt there's any precident in that case. So in this situation, one parent is dead, and the other is unable to take custody. Who, then, gets the child? I'm no lawyer, but I'd guess the closest relative that IS able to take custody, which in this case, is exactly where he was until this week.
You could also make the case that Cuba is an inherantly abusive environment if you wanted, and since Castro wouldn't allow inspection, a judge might agree.
------------------ You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
posted
You could also argue that the home of a Scientologist is inherintly abusive, or a snake handler, or essentially any home where the basic philosophy is fundamentally different from your own.
------------------ "Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?" -- M. Doughty
posted
Naw Daryus, Sol is smart, but he's far too, um, male for me.
------------------ Compadres, it is imperative that we crush the freedom fighters before the start of the rainy season. And remember, a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel Montoya. ~C. Montgomery Burns
posted
"... Not whether, but how best to reunite Elian with his father in the least disruptive manner possible."
That was Janet Reno a few weeks back. She's apparently picked up Al's habit of flip-flopping.
Another thing: this raid was unnesecary. Reno claims it was, because the family had denied previous orders to turn over the child. Problem: any order to turn over a child, without court backing such as a warrant, has no legal weight, and as such SHOULD be ignored. The justice department had no such warrant until approximately twelve hours before the raid.
Sol:
Tell me: are you trying to be difficult, or are you really this obtuse? This is not a case of a different belief system. There is not some grand moral equivalency. This is a case of sending a child back to a dangerous and harmful situation, which is the RESULT of that belief system. If a parent had been known to give their children hardly enough to eat, use them as slave labor, and then SELL them as mercenaries, would you send another kid into their custody? It would seem so, because that is exactly what you'd be doing with Elian by sending him back to the custody of the Cuban state.
------------------ You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited April 24, 2000).]
posted
And another question that's not quite so inflamitory: the father's name is Gonzales. The mother's relatives' name is Gonzales. Now is Gonzales just a really common name in Cuba, or are they somehow related? Or perhaps the husband took the wife's name when they married? Unusual, perhaps, but not impossible.
------------------ You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
posted
A Web search for "Gonzales" and its variants (Gonzalez, Gonsalez) returns 474,774 hits. (And that's way too 47-related to be a coincidence.) That's over twice as many as a search for the most common Vietnamese name, "Nguyen," turned up. So, it seems to be pretty common.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "I was walking out of a movie, and some people recognized me from They Might Be Giants. They said 'Are you John?' and I said '...Yeah.' and then they said 'We're glad to see you getting out.'" - John Linnell
posted
I'm obtuse? I'm Crystal Clear Pepsi compared to your Alto Mocha with extra cream. If you want to play the "are you really?" game, fine. Are you really completely ignorant of everything beyond a seven foot radius of your house? Are you really so sheltered that you've never met anyone with even a vaguely latin american name?
You've done absolutely nothing to convince me that you have the slightest trace of the scent of the trail of a clue.
------------------ "Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?" -- M. Doughty
posted
Your personal opinions of me are irrelevant. If this were a professional debate, you'd be loosing now, and by a wide margin. Attacking your opponent's level of sociability does your arguments no good, and implies that you can not rebut his arguments. "When no rational basis for argument exists, attack your opponent." If you can show that my arguments are flawed, Sol, go right ahead. If you want to keep maintaining that I don't have a clue without saying why, then you will fail to convince anyone with a shred of logical sense that your viewpoint is correct, and my points will stand. Your choice.
Thanks for the info, Frank. That's what I would have guessed.
------------------ You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
posted
Ha. You're the one who started it in the first place, as I noted. You haven't addressed any of my points. All you have done is parrot back the absurd line that Cuba is some sort of living hell over and over again. You know what? I agree with you. I'd rather live in Reseda than Havana. But I'm not FROM Havana. My family isn't there, my friends aren't there, my favorite landmark isn't there. Elian's are. (Well, not in Havana.) You think that Castro's regime is inherintly unfair. Good! I tend to agree. But apparently unlike you, I realize that just because I dislike it and think it won't work doesn't mean that the people who actually live there think the same thing. Shall we send the SEALS over to abduct all the children in Cuba, perhaps? Of course, a good many people in Canada think that the U.S. is a barbaric place. Guns on every street corner. To raise a child in America seems like...well, child abuse. No garanteed health care...only one language...perhaps Canadians should begin to take our tortured children north to the land of politeness and Molson? Where do you want to draw your line, Omega?
------------------ "Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?" -- M. Doughty
posted
Jay, he's far far too male for me as well, but come on, after the above post....there must be some way to reward him. Perhaps I should make him an honourary member of the curry order?
Omega, I've tried to impress this point upon you many times. The USA isn't heaven. All things are not equal, especially in international politics. And Castro isn't the devil in an army suit.
------------------ "Blind faith is the crutch of fools"
posted
Sol: "At any rate, this case should have been open and shut. In this sort of situtation, by law, regardless of the nation of origin, custody reverts to the parents. Open and shut, I say."
"In this sort of situation, custody reverts to the surviving parent. It has in uncounted numbers of similar cases since who knows when."
Me: "All children are wards of the Cuban state anyway."
This is from Castro's own statements, and those of refugees from Cuba that are unrelated to this case.
"As for international law, what's the law when the surviving parent is a citizen of a country where he can NOT legally have custody? I seriously doubt there's any precident in that case. So in this situation, one parent is dead, and the other is unable to take custody. Who, then, gets the child? I'm no lawyer, but I'd guess the closest relative that IS able to take custody, which in this case, is exactly where he was until this week."
---
Sol: "He's not a boy in Cuba anymore, he is an Image. An Icon. And he won't be able to escape that. That is the real tragedy here."
Me: "He'd be better off as a star than a normal kid in Cuba. As a star, he might have a chance of actually getting enough to eat, and not being sent to the fields to work his butt off earning his free education. Not to mention the possibility of being sold as a mercenary to S. America or what have you. 'Course, he'd be infinitely better off being poor here..."
---
"I have not seen a single source giving credence to what you claim that doesn't originate from the relatives in Miami."
"My claims that children are wards of the state in Cuba have been confirmed by Castro himself, along with everyone who's ever lived there. Castro has also stated that Elian will be sent to a deprogramming (read: brainwashing) center for some months if he returns."
---
Hardly ignoring your points...
What the kid wants isn't particularly important to the "abusive environment" argument. A kid could want to live with a father who abused his other kids, but I seriously doubt that a court would allow it.
Once again, Sol, you bring up a non-analagous situation. If Canada started taking kids from the US, aside from getting their butts kicked, they'd be removing children from the custody of PARENTS, when they have no evidence that those parents are abusive. In a similar situation between the US and Cuba, however, we'd be taking a kid away from the custody of a GOVERNMENT, which we have overwhelming evidence IS abusive. It's completely different.
Look, Sol, I'll make it rediculously simple:
The parental guardian is dead. The other parent is legally unable to recieve custody. I'm no lawyer, but it would seem that custody of the child, until otherwise decided by the courts, would probably go to whomever has de facto custody, but possibly the nearest relatives who ARE able to take custody, or the people whom the mother expressed she wished to have custody. In this case, that's all the same group of people. The people with custody articulated Elian's desire to obtain asylum, as would be their right. The law states that any Cuban that is physically present in American territory can apply for asylum, with no age limit on that law. Elian's guardians applied for asylum for him.
It's that easy, Sol. If you've got a problem with the logic or facts in that argument, please point it out.
And as for you, Daryus, the US may not be Heaven, but Cuba, by all reputable accounts, is about as close to Hell as you're likely to find on this planet.
Which, since Castro made it that way, WOULD make him the devil in an army suit.
------------------ You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
posted
And before anyone starts accusing me of wanting to use force to take all children out of Cuba, allow me to point out that they're outside our jurisdiction, whereas Elian isn't.
------------------ You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
First: Amen to your comments.
Sol: Amen to your comments.
Saiyanman: Amen to your comments.
Omega: I sense a contradiction here. While you claim that we should not poke into other people's business, you make claims that the father should not have any custody over his son, and that Elian should not get sent back to Cuba for any reason whatsoever. Should we not poke in on who has custody of a 6-year old child?
We'll just see how the asylum hearing pans out. If Elian wins, then all these arguments will be moot. Though, a defection by the Elder Gonzalez would be a very nice coup-de-grace.
------------------ "My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht." Psychiatrist: "Again."
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited April 25, 2000).]
posted
I think Omega is saying that the custody thing is irrelevant, since the Cuban government is set up such that it alone has true custody of the children. However, I'm not entirely convinced that Cuba is the horrible place that Omega says it is, with all those beaches everywhere.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "I was walking out of a movie, and some people recognized me from They Might Be Giants. They said 'Are you John?' and I said '...Yeah.' and then they said 'We're glad to see you getting out.'" - John Linnell
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