It is a serious matter.

"and absolutely sure you're right"

And the reason for this is that I have logic, law, and reliable sources on my side, whereas you havn't demonstrated the same.

"attempt to apply these magnificent theories of yours in real life. Then observe the consequences"

That's what I was refering to when I pointed out that I was going into politics.

"just because you want to become a politician doesn't mean that you have any real link with the woes of those who check in their time sheets every day and struggle to pay off a mortgage."

Yeah, the reason I have a link to families like that is because mine IS ONE.

"I can see us running around in circles yet again."

How 'bout this: we do a real debate. I've stated my logic chain. Now you try to find a hole in it, and I try to defend it. Or you could even state your logical position, and I could attack it, too. What a novel idea, to attack someone's position, rather than them personally.

Tora:

"But because his father is in Cuba, does that mean he'll never see his father again?"

Well, since Castro's regime will likely fall before either of their deaths (he is over 70, after all), I'd say no. 'Course, that depends on what'd happen afterwards.

"On another note, numerous Cubans who try to get into the U.S. are deported without so much as a peep from the media"

Funny, the law states that any Cuban that's here can apply for asylum. If I'm not mistaken, something like 30 Cubans arrived some weeks ago.

"So if you think we oughtta keep all Cuban children who come here, shouldn't we keep all their parents (i.e. all adults), too?"

If they want to stay, yes. But how often does a Cuban come here NOT wanting to stay?

"For that matter, if we're supposed to treat China the same way, shouldn't we take in all illegal Chinese immigrants, too?"

Well, first, we're not talking about illegal immigrants. The law states that they can stay. Second, I'm not completely sure about the exact wording of the code, but I believe it may say that all aliens who arrive here, whatever their source, may apply for asylum. Whether they recieve it or not is governed by other laws, I presume.

Since Castro came to power, 1 million of the 8 million pre-Castro inhabitants of Cuba have emigrated to other countries.

(Enchantment of the World: Cuba, Children's Press, 1987)

------------------
"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Annual gross domestic products for Caribbean Countries:
Mexico: $383.5 billion
Guatemala: $18.2 billion
Cuba: $16.5 billion
Dominican Republic: $15.7 billion
El Salvador: $11.7 billion
Jamaica: $3.9 billion
Costa Rica: $9.9 billion
Panama: $9.5 billion
Honduras: $4.8 billion
Haiti: $2.6 billion
Nicaragua: $2.2 billion

***

Cuba
Population: 11,096,395
Population growth rate: 0.4% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 12.9 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 7.38 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -1.52 migrant(s)/1,000 population
Infant mortality rate: 7.81 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 75.78 years
male: 73.41 years
female: 78.3 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 1.58 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Mexico
Population: 100,294,036 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.73% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 24.99 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 4.83 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -2.84 migrant(s)/1,000 population
Infant mortality rate: 24.62 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 72 years
male: 68.98 years
female: 75.17 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 2.85 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Guatemala
Population: 12,335,580
Population growth rate: 2.68% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 35.57 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 6.8 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -1.93 migrant(s)/1,000 population
Infant mortality rate: 7.81 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 75.78 years
male: 73.41 years
female: 78.3 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 1.58 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Dominican Republic
Population: 8,129,734
Population growth rate: 1.62% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 25.97 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 5.66 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -4.14 migrant(s)/1,000 population
Infant mortality rate: 42.52 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 70.07 years
male: 67.86 years
female: 72.4 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 3.03 children born/woman (1999 est.)

El Salvador
Population: 5,839,079 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.53% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 26.19 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 6.2 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -4.66 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 28.38 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 70.02 years
male: 66.7 years
female: 73.5 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 2.99 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Jamaica
Population: 2,652,443 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 0.64% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 20.22 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 5.39 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -8.39 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 13.93 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 75.62 years
male: 73.22 years
female: 78.13 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 2.26 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Costa Rica
Population: 3,674,490 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.89% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 22.46 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 4.16 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: 0.63 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 12.89 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 76.04 years
male: 73.6 years
female: 78.61 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 2.76 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Panama
Population: 2,778,526 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.53% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 21.69 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 5.14 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -1.22 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 23.35 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 74.66 years
male: 71.91 years
female: 77.51 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 2.54 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Honduras
Population: 5,997,327 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 2.24% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 30.98 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 7.14 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -1.46 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 40.84 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 64.68 years
male: 63.16 years
female: 66.27 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 3.97 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Haiti
Population: 6,884,264 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.53% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 32.55 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 13.97 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -3.26 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 97.64 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 51.65 years
male: 49.53 years
female: 53.88 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 4.59 children born/woman (1999 est.)

Nicaragua
Population: 4,717,132 (July 1999 est.)
Population growth rate: 2.84% (1999 est.)
Birth rate: 35.04 births/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Death rate: 5.6 deaths/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Net migration rate: -1.06 migrant(s)/1,000 population (1999 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 40.47 deaths/1,000 live births (1999 est.)
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 67.08 years
male: 64.7 years
female: 69.56 years (1999 est.)
Total fertility rate: 4.14 children born/woman (1999 est.)

***

Foreign Investment in Cuba (in millions of dollars)
Canada: $600
Mexico: 450
Italy: 387
Spain: 100
France: $50
Great Britain: 50
Chile: 30
Brazil: 20

***

Looks like it may not be such a rotten place after all. And as to Juan Miguel's decision to stay in his homeland, Cuba, bear in mind that during the American Civil War there were numbers of slaves that fought with the Confederacy against the Union. They did so to protect the South, the region they considered their homes, against what they felt to be Northern encroachment. That fight included protecting the social system (at least in the short term) that went along with the region.

The idea of home, of place, can be very strong. Juan Miguel's wish to return to his home in Cuba with his son is valid.

------------------
Compadres, it is imperative that we crush the freedom fighters before the start of the rainy season. And remember, a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel Montoya.
~C. Montgomery Burns

And be sure to visit The Field Marshal project http://fieldmarshal.virtualave.net/

Therefore, why an immortal (as portrayed in Highlander by my knowledge) ever decay in C-14 as long as they were alive?

------------------
No I'm Spartacus!

Well, since those stats don't really say anything about the quality of life in Cuba, I'd have to disagree with that conclusion based on the posted facts.

"The idea of home, of place, can be very strong. Juan Miguel's wish to return to his home in Cuba with his son is valid."

Ah, thank you, Jay! Finally, someone makes a legitimate argument in response to one of mine!

OK, so we've come up with two possibilities for Juan's saying that he wants to take his son back to Cuba: his mother is being held at gunpoint; it's his home, and so, regardless of all it's flaws, he still wants to live there.

Both are reasonable, and at the moment we can't proove either, so...

But I do wonder. In the case of those slaves you mentioned, your point was that the way of life they were forced to live was horrible, but they had to defend it to defend their homes. I wonder, though, that, if given the choice, any of those slaves would choose to have their children live with them in slavery instead of allowing them to live with someone else in freedom.

This prove that Cuba probabaly have a decent healthcare system, children are getting their food instead of starving and the general population are probabaly feeling "okey" with their lifestyle, after all, a unhappy person usually don't live that long anyway.

I'd say for a communist country, Cuba's not doing too bad.

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

While in US or other G7 countries, individuals earn more money, but in the same time, they also spend way more. A citizen in Cuba makes less money then a citizen in US, but in Cuba, you probabaly don't need that much to get on with your life.

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

I would also call into question the validity of the stats. I'd like to know how they were obtained, if possible. It seems rather odd to me that a country with horrible medicine (regardless of their health care plans) would have a longer life expectancy that what I seem to recall as average. I wouldn't be surprised if these are just numbers Castro feeds people...

I'm also tempted to comment on how when I think Limbaughfacts are either grossly misrepresented or outright lies, I'm letting my bias shine through, but when you do it you're an upstanding avenger for truth. But I doubt that would get us anywhere.

------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty

My topic broke the 100th messages!

I'm sooooo happy that I could kill myself right here right now!

........On another thought, maybe I'll just go have some ice cream and cookies.

------------------
Okey, okey, here's my question:

------------------
"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

------------------
Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

"Well, if a person can live till almost 80 years of age, I doubt that the quality of life can be as bad as "hell","

Sol, with my

"I hope you realize that what you guys are saying is akin to the people who go through old slave quarters, saying, "You know, slaves didn't really have it so bad, for the time." What they have or don't have is irrelevant. They're still slaves!".

And DT would smite you for saying it was a communist nation.

"I'm also tempted to comment on how when I think Limbaughfacts are either grossly misrepresented or outright lies, I'm letting my bias shine through, but when you do it you're an upstanding avenger for truth. But I doubt that would get us anywhere."

You're learning.

"Also, some news for you. Cubans are not slaves."

Let's see: children are all wards of the state, Castro sells his people as mercenaries, you have to work your butt off in his sugar fields to earn your free education, and if you don't do what he says, you get shot. Sounds like slavery to me.

"Ever heard of a benevolent dictator?"

A benevelant dictator is still a dictator

"I don't see you going after Lee Kwan Yu."

Which is because he is irrelevant to this conversation. We're talking about Cuba, not Singapore.

I'm unable to locate an online CIA handbook. They do sell them, though. If you can guarentee me it's there, Daryus, I'll accept the stats unless/until circumstances change.