posted
Kennedy? Yeah, all he did was push for civil rights, and avert a nuclear war with the Soviets over that tiny little Cuba island ...
As to hear you blast FDR ... well, thats just plain sad, Omega, and proof that you don't know much about history yourself.
A Republican president would have maintained American neutrality during the war, and even if they had gone to war, would not have given support to the Allies through programs such as Lend Lease, which helped Britain fight Hitler before we entered.
To say that Hitler ended the depression is a half-truth. Yes, the war effort finished off the depression, but FDR's programs such as The New Deal, and the Works Progress Administration had already begun the work long before Poland was invaded.
In fact, before FDR's first 100 days in office was over, he had already created the NRA (National Recovery Administration), FDIC (Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation), the Home Owners Loan Corporation, the Securities and Exchange Commission, and The Federal Emergency Relief Administration. All of theses were designed to combat the downtread economy.
Most key was the passage of the National Industries Recovery Act, which was aimed at "stimulating industrial production."
Yes, there were abuses of the system, but the NRA (not the Riffle Association, look back above) did increase labor-union recruitment.
Production and consumption were maintaining a steady rise, although not reaching pre-Depression levels.
Proof that FDR was doing a good job came in his reelection campaign, when the he recieved 60% of the poplar vote (only Maine and Vermont went to his opponent, Republican Landon).
By this time, FDR was already looking towards Europe, knowing a war with the Nazis would be close behind. This is why he came up with the Lend-Lease bill, which granted him "unprecendented powers to aid any country whose defense was deemed vital to the defense of the United States." America lent tanks, warplanes, and ships that could be returned after a War ... only hard lined isolationists like Sen Robert Taft opposed him.
I might add that Americans such as Henry Ford, Charles Lindbergh, and anti-semetic Father Charles Coughlin were strong supporters of the Neutrality Act of 1935, which made it illegal to sell munitions to any of the parties involved in WWII. This was one of America's attempts to stay out of someone else's war and remain neutral. (FDR got around this by the Lend-Lease Act).
Now, at this time, American politics was split between "isolationists" (who wished to remain neutral), and "interventionists" (who wanted to stop the War as quickly as possible, recognizing that the longer the US delayed entry meant higher losses).
Yes, when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, it was clear that there would be war, and the wartime production finished off the Depression, but to say that Hitler and not FDR was responsible is a half-truth and spoken more from ignorance than anything else.
***
I don't like LBJ because he kept the nation in Vietnam when we should've been getting the hell out. However, LBJ was a very strong supporter of the civil rights movement, and his finest moment came when he sent Federal agents into Mississippi to root out the racist Klansman/Police who killed three men (two whites and a black) whose only crime was helping blacks register to vote.
Omega, you claim you're for a party that supports individual rights, yet you fail to recognize the actions of Republicans (both civilian, law enforcement and elected)in surpressing the rights of those with a different color skin.
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass. *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
(ahem)...Reagan & Bush BAD....Nixon GOOD.
While obviously failing as a domestic president, Nixon was the pinnacle of foreign policy; there's a reason why he was still called "The Great Statesman" up to his death &why he was still send abroad as a goodwil ambassador.
Detente began under Nixon when he had the balls to actually TALK to Brezhnev & not insult him.
The foundation for arms reduction treaties began under Nixon.
Contrary to hippie propaganda, Nixon did more to END the war in Vietnam than LBJ.
"Only Nixon could go to China." Damn straight. That took huevos, man.
------------------ "Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much."
posted
I was just shitting, about kissing the babies, then, the front page of the paper today had Bush kissing a 6 month old...... LOL Ok, I think that post of mine was right on then.....
"Kennedy? Yeah, all he did was push for civil rights, and avert a nuclear war with the Soviets over that tiny little Cuba island ..."
The GOPs in congress were the ones that shoved the CRA through. And he nearly STARTED that war by placing missiles in... Turkey, wasn't it?
As for FDR, another typical Democrat idea. "Oh, forget that nothing he did actually did any good. His programs MEANT well." The depression was lightening up a LITTLE on its own before the war. WW2 ended it.
re LBJ:
Personally, I don't like him because he kept the status quo in 'Nam instead of beating the snot out of N. Vietnam. You don't fight a war with gloves on.
"you claim you're for a party that supports individual rights, yet you fail to recognize the actions of Republicans (both civilian, law enforcement and elected)in surpressing the rights of those with a different color skin."
Oh, yes. Racism and being a Republican have a LOT to do with each other. Go talk to my grandfather, the staunch democrat and racist, wudja?
Shik:
Yeah, Nixon was a mixed bag. Good foreign policy, CRAP domestically.
JK2:
re: Reagan
Yeah, he is a different story. Best president this century. You can thank him for the economy.
------------------ Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto. Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think? Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
Of course FDR "meant well." He also did a lot of good, and had the Depression heading out the door when WWII came about. It would've taken longer without the war to end the Depression, of course, but it would have been done.
The start of the Cuban Missile Crisis was more a result of the Bay of Pigs, after which Nikita Kuschchev began to send the missiles to Cuba. Yes, the Russians were pissed about having missiles pointing at them from *several* Western European nations ... of course, the Russians also had their own missiles pointing at the same Western European nations, but had no missiles that could reach the U.S., and were rather upset about that.
To state that the GOP was responsible for the Civil Rights Act is ... well, laughable. Kennedy formed a "Commission on the Status of Women," to address the inequality of the sexes.
When the Civil Rights Act was up in the House, Howard W. Smith (a Republican from Virginia), added "sex" to the list of "race, color, religion or national origin", assuming the bill would be voted down (because, c'mon, who wants to give women the right to vote anyway?) Right there you have evidence of GOB scheming to defeat the bill, which passed the House, and was later signed into law by LBJ.
As for Reagan ... god, you really are ... well, I won't say it. Reagan was barely a president, having little control over what went on when he was in office. Two things helped him maintain his popularity:
1) The release of US Hostages in Iran when he entered Office, despite the fact that he had nothing to do with the releases.
2) His success at overcoming the attempted assassination (later, with Bush as president, Reagan's physician would tell news agencies that Reagan had been incapable of preforming the duties of his job, and powers should have been transfered - temporarily - to VP Bush)
George Bush condemned Reagan's economic plan as "Voodoo Economics", and another Republican primary opponent said his plan could only be accomplished by "mirrors."
Reagan's theory was that if taxes were cut --> people would produce more good --> spend more money --> creating more jobs --> higher government revenues
"Trickle-down economics", in other words.
Reagan's bill passed in '81. Shortly thereafter, the economy was soon in the midst of the full-blown recession. Gee, great economy, Mr. Actor.
Unemployment went high, inflation rose, banktrupcies and business failures skyrocketed ... the Federal Reserve Board (under Carter as well), had kept intrest rates high in an attempt to brake the economy. Eh ... didn't work.
The economy did begin to get better when oil prices were lowered, but you can clearly see that the immediate results weren't very good. Of course, the Federal Deficit went through the clouds.
"For years, conservatives had complained that liberal social programs had tried to solve problems by 'throwing money at them.' Now, under President Reagan, the conservatives were going to try to solve the 'weakness' of America's defenses by doing the same thing." - Kenneth C. Davis, author & historian
You also completely glossed over Iran-Contra, and the fact that Reagan was critized after his term (by members of his own administration!) as a man who was a "detached, disinterested Executive who asked no questions, ignored details, and allowed subordinates to run amok."
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Yeah, man, don't you remember the HORROR of the eighties, when HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Yuppies were out of work and living out of their BMW's??
come on!
oh, and as for supply side economics... perhaps the best thing about JFK is that HE believed in it, and used it, as well. D'oh!
>"Now, under President Reagan, the conservatives were going to try to solve the 'weakness' of America's defenses by doing the same thing." - Kenneth C. Davis, author & historian"
Yeah, but in this case it WORKED, because it was a competition to outspend the USSR, rather than throwing money in a bottomless pit, this one had a bottom. Guess who's still standing...
>"Reagan was critized after his term (by members of his own administration!) as a man who was a "detached, disinterested Executive who asked no questions, ignored details, and allowed subordinates to run amok."
Hmm. Criticized by his own subordinates (after all, the people in his administration were by definition his subordinates) for THEIR OWN running amok. I suppose you've never heard of the CYA phenomenon...
------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited November 05, 2000).]
More on Reagan's office activities, from THE WASHINGTON TIMES:
"The board painted a picture of Ronald Reagan very different from what the world has become accostomed to in the last six years. No trace here of the lopsided smile, the easy wave, the confident men that carried him through past crisis; this portrait is of a man confused, distracted, so remote that he failed utterly to control the implemention of his vision of an initiative that would free American hostages and reestablish American influence in Iran, with all of its present and future strategic importance. At times, in fact, the report makes the President sound like the inhabitant of a never-never land of imaginary politics."
I would like to add that the board upon whose report this was written, was chaired by none other than Senator John Tower, a Republican (who later rejected by the Senate as Bush's Defense Secretary because of his drinking & womanizing).
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 05, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 05, 2000).]
posted
"To state that the GOP was responsible for the Civil Rights Act is ... well, laughable."
Well, considering it wouldn't have GOTTEN to Kennedy without GOP support...
"When the Civil Rights Act was up in the House, Howard W. Smith (a Republican from Virginia), added "sex" to the list of "race, color, religion or national origin", assuming the bill would be voted down (because, c'mon, who wants to give women the right to vote anyway?) Right there you have evidence of GOB scheming to defeat the bill..."
What evidence do you have that he didn't simply want women protected, too? Some memoirs?
"later, with Bush as president, Reagan's physician would tell news agencies that Reagan had been incapable of preforming the duties of his job, and powers should have been transfered - temporarily - to VP Bush"
Uh... they were.
"George Bush condemned Reagan's economic plan as "Voodoo Economics""
I should care what Bush said... why? Look up the numbers. The tax cut worked.
"Reagan's bill passed in '81. Shortly thereafter, the economy was soon in the midst of the full-blown recession."
Numbers, please? 'Cause that's the exact opposite of everything I've seen.
Reagan lowered taxes. Unemployment was ELIMINATED. Inflation stayed at five percent. Revenues doubled. More people jumped straight from lower to upper class than stayed in the lower class. Get the facts straight before you start blithering.
Rob:
"oh, and as for supply side economics... perhaps the best thing about JFK is that HE believed in it, and used it, as well. D'oh!"
Oh, yes, I forgot about that. I stand corrected. He DID do something useful.
JK2:
"Guess who is a few trillions in debt?
Not sure here, but I'd guess Russia owes us quite a bit of money, so they're pretty well as in debt as we are.
Second, the Democrats controlled congress during the eighties. Every budget Reagan sent in was pronounced DOA. You can thank your Dem friends and their pork-barrel spending for the debt.
------------------ Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto. Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think? Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
posted
Oh goodness, how could I let the candles go out on my Ronny "I built up a huge debt, watched capital flight run rampent, but derned if I didn't lie to Congress to help out them Contras...Mommy, comb my hair" Reagan shrine.
Mmmm, national debt.
------------------ Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit? ~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited November 06, 2000).]
Actually, Reagan's powers were never transfered to Bush, because the 25th Ammendmant was never invoked.
Howard W. Smith added the part about "sex" as a 'killer ammendment' -- another way to get it voted down. He had no desire to see anyone but white males protected. And if you can prove otherwise, more power to you.
Actually, even with Reagan in office, unemployment stayed around the 12-5% mark, so calling it "elminated" is a bit of stretch.
And for your information, Mr. Omega, Democrats DID help push through Reagan's '81 bill.
And I would imagine we're in debt because *someone* decided to outspend the Soviets ...
Yes, I do rely on history books, Omega. Who do you rely on? Right-wing publications and your parents?
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 06, 2000).]
posted
"Actually, Reagan's powers were never transfered to Bush, because the 25th Ammendmant was never invoked."
Funny thing, then, that every time I've seen the question discussed, it's been said that Bush executed Reagan's job for 24 hours...
"Howard W. Smith added the part about "sex" as a 'killer ammendment' -- another way to get it voted down. He had no desire to see anyone but white males protected. And if you can prove otherwise, more power to you."
I've got a better idea. Why don't you prove it in the first place? See, you've lost all credibility, so I have no inclination to just take your word for this. See where shooting your mouth off before getting the facts gets you?
"And I would imagine we're in debt because *someone* decided to outspend the Soviets ..."
Again, check your facts. Tax revenues doubled during the eighties, and yet military spending went up by around three percent of the total budget. So where'd all the other new spending come from, hmm?
------------------ Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto. Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think? Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
Bush took over for *only* 24-hours? He should have had them for much longer, according to Reagan's doctor, and yet Reagan was back in charge after only a day?
Smith was a well known racist/sexist, et all.
And if I've lost all credibility, why do you still respond? You make yourself to be a fool, Omega.
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
posted
"Bush took over for *only* 24-hours? He should have had them for much longer, according to Reagan's doctor"
Well, then, YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID THAT. Don't you get that words mean things?
"And if I've lost all credibility, why do you still respond?"
Mainly so anyone that's reading your posts that doesn't know what's going on won't be convinced of the truth of all the misinformation you spout. That, and I just like showing you up.
------------------ Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto. Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think? Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
I thought you would understand I was talking about the 25th Ammendment without my having to spell it out for you.
I'll know better next time.
I find it intereasting how you accuse me of misinformation, when you (and yes, this is not the first time I've made this accusation) sprout nothing but the Republican Party Line, yet accuse others (including me) of not thinking for themselves.
------------------ Gore/Lieberman 2000 *** "You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod *** "I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
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