------------------ "Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."
-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.
posted
Deadly force is justifiable when a suspect poses a threat to officers or civilians through their present actions. This means that if they are arresting a known killer they can't just shoot him even though his is known to be dangerous.
------------------ God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the weaponry to make the difference.
posted
JeffK: Perhaps it would help if you actually paid attention to what I was talking about. I never said the cops in question were or were not racist. I'm tlaking about the rioters. Most likely, the rioters are mostly black, and any specific acts of personal violence by them would be directed at whites. A small group of white guys (the cops) were the alledged racists. Attacking large numbers of innocent white people because of that is still racism, just the other way around. So, if that is how these riots are working (it's how they usually do, yes?), the rioters are, in fact, committing acts of racism in the name of fighting racism. And, when this happens, people tend to accept it, because "it's just the oppressed minority fighting for freedom".
Racism shouldn't be considered a good thing, just because it's being practiced by members of a group that usually falls victim to the same...
------------------ "Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow." -Maynard James Keenan
When something like this happens, it's because one group feels oppressed by another group. It's not like the black community in Cincinnati hasn't had good reason to feel like they've been oppressed, and this is what happens when you light the proverbial match.
I mean, come on now, if you were Jewish in Germany sixty years ago, who would YOU attack during a riot? Other Jews or the Germans who were prosecuting you?
Don't act like it's not understandable why whites are being targeted. I'm not saying it's excuseable, simply that when the black population gets riled up over something like this (which doesn't come out of the blue, mind you, this was just the latest incident of what is viewed by many as blatant racism on the part of the Cincinnati PD), who do you EXPECT them to go after?
This is a good part of the reason why we need better trained cops. It is never acceptable to shoot a fleeing suspect.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..." -Jay, July 15, 2000
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited April 14, 2001).]
posted
>"I mean, come on now, if you were Jewish in Germany sixty years ago, who would YOU attack during a riot? Other Jews or the Germans who were prosecuting you?"
Yeah, except that Jews probably wouldn't have trashed their own people's businesses. They've got a sense of community. THESE rioters are attacking poor black businesses. THOSE are the places being targeted. And they're attacking ANY white people, even those who might be on their side.
Actually, it's also a bad analogy because of what would have happened to the Jews AFTER they rioted. (Can you say 'wholesale slaughter?' I knew you could.)
Speaking of oppressed minorities.. when was the last Native American riot?
------------------ The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
posted
Well, if we had cops who actually knew when to fire and what their jobs were and what-not, we wouldn't have this problem, now would we?
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..." -Jay, July 15, 2000
quote: Speaking of oppressed minorities.. when was the last Native American riot?
Well, considering riots generally develop in urban areas, and there are no large urbanized populations of Natives, I'd say expecting one is a bit much.
------------------ "I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely." -Omega, April 6
posted
Actually, I can recall a few Native American 'uprisings' as it were. Like those ones in Quebec, and the American Indian Movement some time ago.
Wasn't one of the guys Clinton declined to pardon (Pelletier, or something) part of that? Guess his friends didn't donate enough.
>"Well, if we had cops who actually knew when to fire and what their jobs were and what-not, we wouldn't have this problem, now would we?"
Yeah. And if that kid obeyed the law, he wouldn't have had 14 warrants out on him, either. So the cops would never have been after him. So I guess it's just a matter of how far back you want to cast the blame? The lawmakers who made those acts crimes?
------------------ The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited April 14, 2001).]
posted
JeffK HOW DARE YOU! You have know idea what you are talking about. I've been sitting here listening to you bad mouth the police with your holyer then thou attitude and frankly I have had enough. You do not know the whole situation and saying that the problem could have been avoided by have cops that know when to shoot and when not to is insulting. Maybe when you have been in there shoes for awhile you could have something important to say but until then why don't you just shut the hell up.
------------------ God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the weaponry to make the difference.
Wow. So -- what? That cop was justified in killing him because this kid hadn't buckled up a couple of times? That's infuckingexcuseable. News flash: this ain't your dictatorship you're so fond of. When a kid dies because a cop didn't do his job, there is NO excuse.
Hey: Tec. Wake up.
First of all: well, I won't say it. I'm thinking it though. But, to continue: How dare I? How dare you NOT? Just because someone wears blue and a shield it's supposed to justify their actions? Hell no.
My attitude is "holier-than-thou"? No, it's simply understanding that the black community has suffered a lot at the hands of the police departments across this country for decades. Look at the recent scandal in LA PD's Rampart Division. To pretend that the black community isn't aware of this racism is ludicrous. Something like this happens, and it's dropping a match in a gas tank. It's gonna start off a blaze. I'm sorry if this goes over your head.
Officer Roach did NOT do his job. Please explain to me why it is excuseable to shoot a suspect who is UNARMED and FLEEING who is wanted on what amounts to traffic violations? No, please. Because it sounds to me like you're condoning a blatant murder just because the murderer happens to wear a shield.
COPS ARE NOT ABOVE THE LAW. I'm sorry if that's too big of a concept for you to understand, but it's a simple fact. Now, I'm not blaming all cops. They're a lot of good cops out there who wouldn't shoot someone in the back.
Now, I know, I'm just a bleeding heart liberal, but death isn't a punishment for "14 misdemeanor warrants: three for driving with an expired license, four for seat belt violations, five for driving without a driver's license and two for obstruction of official business."
Bullshit. Why are you defending his behavior? Please explain this to me.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..." -Jay, July 15, 2000
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited April 14, 2001).]
posted
I get the situation far better then you might think. First of all you are not the last authority on the matter of cops doing their jobs. As I have already stated you do not have all the facts, who says the suspect was still fleeing. He could have done any number of things to give the officer reason to believe he had a weapon and was going to use it. You were not there and neither was I. I don't trust the media to give all the information for use to really know what happend. So you cannot say that the officer shot a suspect who was unarmed and fleeing. He may have been fleeing but the officer had no way of knowing if he was armed or not.
I never said cops are above the law nor do I believe that they should be. They are there to protect us from ourselves by the laws that we create. They may not be above the law but they are allowed to protect themselves while upholding it.
As I and everyone else sees this a mistake was made, a bad one that caused a young man his life. To just out right blame the police is stupid. We don't know what the mistake was. Was it an officer who reacted poorly to the situation or was it a supsect who gave the officer a reason to believe that he had a weapon and intended to use it.
This young man did not die because of his past record, he died because of his present actions.
All I am saying is to stop attacking the police before you know the whole truth because if you do you become no better then the rioters.
------------------ God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the weaponry to make the difference.
[This message has been edited by Tec (edited April 14, 2001).]
"I mean, come on now, if you were Jewish in Germany sixty years ago, who would YOU attack during a riot? Other Jews or the Germans who were prosecuting you?"
The latter. I would not, however, attack innocent Germans who had done nothing.
"Don't act like it's not understandable why whites are being targeted."
I never said I didn't understand why they're targeting whites. I understand it perfectly. It's called "racism". And fighting racism w/ more racism is disgusting.
"I'm not saying it's excuseable, simply that when the black population gets riled up over something like this (which doesn't come out of the blue, mind you, this was just the latest incident of what is viewed by many as blatant racism on the part of the Cincinnati PD), who do you EXPECT them to go after?"
Um... Let's see... The police, maybe? Oh, wait, that would make too much sense, wouldn't it?
------------------ "Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow." -Maynard James Keenan
Well, you don't know that he did anything to PROVOKE the officer now, do you? If the Justice Department is looking into it, it's a pretty clear indication that something BAD happened. The kid was unarmed, what'd he do, scream "BOOO?"
TSN,
How exactly would you distinguish between one German and a Nazi German? Not like people would wear a big sign saying "I'm not a Nazi! Die Hitler, Die!" would it? Look, you wanna talk about how you think you'd react in a certain circumstance, fine. The fact of the matter is, the black community percieves racism. When that perception reaches a boiling point, watch the fuck out.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..." -Jay, July 15, 2000
According to him (he believe that he can comment on it because he actually went to the army) real military life is nothing like the show, that drill dude is playing soft on the casts, and that the entire casts are all bunches of wusses who's constant whinning pissed my father off after watching 5 minutes of the show.
Finally, I had to tell my father something like: "it's only a show man, don't get so carry out" ^0^
------------------ What is the difference between a terriorist and your girlfriend? - With terrorist, there is a chance of negotiation.
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