------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..." -Jay, July 15, 2000
posted
You need to take your own advice. You total missed what I was saying. I did not mean physically attacking somebody. I'm talking about not jumping to conclusions about anybody or anything. Don't just start verbally attacking. Wait until you know what has really happend and then make up your mind. The rioters just jumped to the conclusion that Thomas was shot because he was black and running from the cops. What if it turns out that he tried to fight the cop or grab somebody near by. If this were to be the case suddenly everything changes.
I am saying that without all of the facts decisions are very rarely made correctly.
You are right in feeling that it is wrong to shoot a suspect who is still running away in the back. However the point remains was he shot in the back, that is what I'm trying to get out.
And yes I seriously doubt if anybody will disagree with the fact that the police are not above the law. They are part of the law and they make mistakes. When they make mistakes something bad usually happens and appropriate actions needs to be taken.
The big question is Did Roach make a mistake and fire on a none aggressive suspect or Did Thomas give him sufficent reason to shoot. That is the question, not if he should be punished if he is in the wrong or shooting a suspect in the back is wrong. We know the answers to those questions already.
------------------ God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the weaponry to make the difference.
posted
JeffK I think you need to understand something. At the time of the shooting the officer had no way of knowing if the suspect was armed or not. He can't take that chance. If the suspect makes a threating motion, like reaching under his shirt or in a pocket the officer must protect himself, because he is the protection for the people. As it has been said the many outway the few. The safety of the majority must be consider. Granted Thomas wasn't under arrest for anything serious, but people do stupid things under stress. Just look at the idiots who get pulled over for speeding, they have no past crimes yet they run and kill people. That is why an officer will shoot if a suspect makes a threat, because if he is killed other innocents could die. Think about this, what if Thomas had a weapon and the officer didn't shoot and was killed or injured. Then Thomas, now wanted for murder or assaulting an officer, takes a hostage and a standoff insues. During this the hostage is killed. The officer would be hated for not stopping him in the first place. The officer must protect the many.
------------------ Aaahhh Worf, eat any good books lately - Q from Q less
posted
Well, what if Roach was a racist and said to himself, "I'm gonna shoot me a nigger" and shot him dead? Don't engage in hypotheticals. What evidence do you have that Thomas may have resorted to violence? Nothing of what he was wanted on was a violent charge.
And I'm sorry you don't realize this, but if a cop shoots someone because of a what if? running through his mind, that doesn't neccessarily justify the shooting.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..." -Jay, July 15, 2000
Why not? There's nothing wrong with presenting hypothetical situations. We're trying to get it through your head that there ARE possibilities other than the one you're stuck on. Open your mind, Jeff. There's a whole big world of possibilities out here.
------------------ "Omega is right." -Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
posted
Well, once again I come late to a thread, and yes, I feel honour-bound to summarise what I've learnt.
1. Timothy Thomas, a black teenager in Cincinatti, Ohio, was about to be arrested for a large-ish (14, in fact) number of warrants pertaining to what were, for the most part, minor offenses.
2. Thomas resisted arrest in some as-yet-determined manner, whether it was threatening violence to the police or just attempting to evade them. This led Officer Steven Roach to shoot and kill him.
3. Since then there have been riots in the city, largely by other black youths who have destroyed local businesses (ironically owned by other black people) and targeted any white people in the vicinity.
4. Police forces in the US have a history of racism which shows in many examples of brutality and excessive force.
5. Despite this, the circumstances which led to Roach shooting Thomas could have involved a) Thomas giving them the impression he was armed, when he wasn't; b) him attacking them in such a manner, or with such a degree of ferocity, that they immediately feared for their lives, or had no opportunity to attempt other less-lethal means of subduing him; c) Roach accidentally pulling the trigger, which is a pefectly acceptable accident, regardless of the fact that firearms training usually recommends keeping your finger off the triger until you clearly intend to shoot.
6. However, there is NO POSSIBILITY WHATSOEVER that the circumstances might have involved a) racism on the part of Roach or any other officers present, or b) blood-lust on their parts. This is because they were all good decent officers who were apparently unaffected by any racist attitudes in their department.
7. The life of one law enforcement official is worth several times that of an anonymous black teenager. Far better that several essentially innocent people die than one police officer be killed.
8. Lots of blacks rioting is a far greater crime than a few white middle-aged men shooting one black man. And that black man didn't do his seatbelt up, which makes his life forfeit anyway.
9. Just about everyone who posts here is a white male. Just about anyone else who's ever been here who isnt - be they female, or any other race, have left. Can't imagine why.
10. This thread is a slanging-match between Fo2, Omega and Tec (police are the thin blue line protecting us from the black hordes; they may have a few bad apples but, omelettes and eggs) versus JeffK (police should be accountable for what they do, no exceptions). No-one else is really getting a look-in.
11. It's OK for Omeychops to contradict himself - context is very important.
12. I still don't like the FlameBoard very much.
------------------ "It strikes me that there are enough episodes of the Simpsons that people could speak entirely in Simpsonese, using references from the show to explain or describe an endless series of situations. Nelson and Apu . . . at Tinagra.
But now I�ve brought Star Trek into it again, haven�t I. Sorry."
I do understand that. I addressed that in an earlier post -- didn't you advise me to read other posts? Maybe you should take that advice. And if you want to engage in hypotheticals, what about the explanation that Roach just thought, "hey, I got some dumb nigger runnin', this is a good time to take 'im out." BANG!
See the problem?
There's no evidence that Thomas made any hostile moves. Do you have any? No, you don't.
Now, with the FBI looking into this, I'm tending to suspect it's because of strong evidence that the shooting WASN'T justified.
Nicely said, Vogon
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** I wouln't say that anyone who has ceased to post every time you rant has "realized that they couldn't win" Omega. It's more like "oh, great he comes Mr. conservative frontal lobotomy boy who only hits one note over and over and over and over..." -Jay, July 15, 2000
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited April 17, 2001).]
posted
Omega: "Open your mind, Jeff. There's a whole big world of possibilities out here."
I'm sure he's doing this on purpose, just to torture me. Damn him.
------------------ You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston." -Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
I know that an unarmed man was shot while running from police.
Tell me, what do YOU know?
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** "I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
Saltah'na
Chinese Canadian, or 75% Commie Bastard.
Member # 33
posted
Open your mind, Jeff. There's a whole big world of possibilities out here
I hate to say this, but I have not seen you do the same thing. Therefore, you cannot tell Jeff to do something you yourself have not done (AFAIK, that is).
------------------ "In a completely unrelated news story, I have a date tomorrow night." - Omega, in trying to explain why pigs are now flying, why Microsoft products are now working perfectly, hell freezing over, and George W Bush giving a flawless speech. 04/06/01, 12:17AM
posted
Vogon first of all I am offended that you think I believe that police are the thin line between us and the "black horde". By saying that you have implied that I am a racist and I am not. I don't spend my days thinking about how to get rid of all the non whites. I am friends with/work with/ live next to many people who are not white and I enjoy being around them. Police are out there protecting all of us from the criminal horde. I am just trying to get everyone to look before they leap. The last time I looked this country ran on the idea that you are innocent until proven quilty, however it seems to me that Jeff feels that Roach is guilty skip the trail and go straight to the hanging.
I've said this once and I will say it again for all of you who a) didn't read it the first time b) ignored it
The police are not above the law and I don't think they should be. If Roach made a mistake it will be found out. If he did it on purpose out of hate it will be found out. If either of these turn out to be true I hope that he is punished to the full extent of his crime.
------------------ God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the weaponry to make the difference.
posted
JeffK, I admit that we don't know for fact that Thomas made any threating move towards the police. The problem is that we don't know that he didn't either. That is what will make the difference in this arguement. Who knows if Roach shot him because he thought "yeah I want to shoot me a nigger", or if he did it to protect himself. It just seems to me that you want to blame Officer Roach before all the evidence is in. You assume that because the FBI is involved it means that it wasn't justified. However, the FBI could be involved because this is such an explosive situation. The government may have felt that they needed to make a large show of force to find the truth and that is why the FBI is involved, who knows.
You said earlier that it makes no sense that Thomas would become a threat because he was only wanted on minor charges. But one fact we do know and all agree on is that he attempted to evade police. This means that his stress level has gone up as well as other chemicals in his body such as adrenaline. Adrenaline affects the mind making it hard to think rationally. It is called the fight or flight response. Thomas was afraid, he ran. Maybe he got cornered, I don't know, but it is possible that he thought "all I have to do is knock the cop down and I can get away" and that would be a threating move towards the officer who does not know if the suspect is armed and given a choice between lives the suspect loses in that situation. I know that sounds harsh, but that is the way it is.
If you don't like this fact you can move to another country, say, Russia where they would have just gone to his families place and beat them until he gave up, or to Germany where the second he tried to run they would have shot him with assault rifles. Suddenly America doesn't sound so bad.
------------------ Aaahhh Worf, eat any good books lately - Q from Q less
In England, they'd have hung him in the Tower of London. And if it was France, he'd have been sent straight to the guilettine. And in Canada, he'd have been beaten to death with hokey sticks.
Thank god for the US, where people running only have to worry about getting shot in the back with pistols. And thank god that people in the US have TV to tell them what other countries are really like. Dirty communist bastards.
------------------ You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston." -Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
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