posted
According to Stipes, the VFX people use a much smaller length on screen. That would make it "what's on the show".
And you must have misunderstood me. Why is it that you feel free to ignore the 50m-Defiant scene in FC, but you won't let anyone else ignore anything?
Oh, and Boris, the Constellation nacelles aren't scaled down. The back ends are chopped off.
------------------ "I think you people have proven something to the world: that a half a million kids can get together and have three days of fun and music� and have nothing but fun and music." -Max Yasgur; Woodstock, NY; August, 1969
posted
TSN: Yesss! I thought I was the only one who believed the Constellation has chopped nacelles The ship is probably slightly shorter than the Ent-A. We need better pics of the real model to be sure, though.
The Miranda is ~245m - I don't care what Stipes says on the matter.
Frank: Here's a capture from "Defiant" which you'll want to ignore Defiant above Galor. 481m is the largest (and most probable) length figure I've seen for the Galor. They might have been using that old 69m Defiant figure here (and in FC).
------------------ "Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets) Dax's Ships of STAR TREK
[This message has been edited by Dax (edited October 22, 1999).]
posted
And chaos struck... That was just to see how something as innocent as ship size could degenerate in a battlefield. I really think we should stop arguing about this on this forum.
The Shadow: I agree with you. Sure, some things everyone will agree on (Kirk is dead, the Borg are evil, Seven's on the show for her breasts, etc) but the fact is when something like the Defiant has 3 main separate lenghts all equally valid, you have to choose for yourself. No matter how much you want to convince someone the Defiant is X m because you saw it on screen, someone else will say it's really Y m long for the same reason.
------------------ -Doctor: We'll defend ourselves! They won't get what they're after! -Aliens: Huh? -Doctor: I mean, you won't get what you're after! ECH to Hierarchy vessel in VOY "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor Spy"
-Seven: *Kissing the doctor* It was a platonic gesture. Don't espect me to pose for you. -Doctor: *Embarassed* Understood. Seven to the Doctor in VOY "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor Spy"
posted
Dax: I know, I have a similar image. The Galor has been a lot larger than 481m, though, such as in "Pre-emptive Strike" and SoA, where it was several times larger than the Vor'cha.
If you think that the Defiant is really ~60m, fine, but that isn't large enough to fit everything we've seen in the ship.
TerraZ: Well, it depends on what you define to be "valid." As far as I'm concerned, only the show is canon, and so nothing else, no matter how "reliable" the source, is as relevant.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "Don't worry; in Season Two we abandon it for 'I Am A Sock-Puppet!'" - Bob Skir
posted
The Shadow: I meant that when you see 3 different lenght for the Defiant on screen (which makes them all valid), there is an inconsistency, unless all the Alpha Quadrant powers really do use size-shifting technology. Following what you're saying (it goes for you too Boris), the Defiant really HAS 3 separate lenghts. How is it possible? It's not BUT IT'S CANON!!!
The result? You have to make up your own idea. The show is contradictory, what Paramount and Okuda says is irrelevant because it isn't on screen and finally there's us, the viewer. What I'm basically saying is we're free to accept or refuse what we see on Star Trek. I know you're gonna say that means I'm not a "real" fan if I don't accept it all, but I know I am. Just because I don't agree with a stupid measure doesn't mean I'm a bad guy.
Personally, I prefer common sense and consistency to twisted reasoning when trying to explain production errors. So sue me if that's wrong.
------------------ -Doctor: We'll defend ourselves! They won't get what they're after! -Aliens: Huh? -Doctor: I mean, YOU won't get what you're after! ECH to Hierarchy vessel in VOY "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor Spy"
-Seven: *Kissing the doctor* It was a platonic gesture. Don't espect me to pose for you. -Doctor: *Embarassed* Understood. Seven to the Doctor in VOY "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor Spy"
posted
Correct. Personally, if the Defiant appears as ~120m five times, and ~60m once in an unrelated production, I'll take the 120m length. If someone else says that the 60m length is better because ILM is the best VFX company in the world, you would have canon evidence backing you up, although stuff like the shuttlebay wouldn't fit. Of course, if you say the Defiant is 170m because his holiness Stipes (or Sternbach or whoever) said so, I'll begin treating you like First of Two treats creationists.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "Don't worry; in Season Two we abandon it for 'I Am A Sock-Puppet!'" - Bob Skir
posted
I try to avoid these ship-length discussions, but I think I'll try to bring some sanity to this one. Does anyone else remember someone suggesting that subspace fields xor shield bubbles might affect the apparent size of a ship? Seems reasonable, simple, and could resolve all the apparent length changes permanantly, if accepted. And didn't someone (Shipmaster?) take a picture of the top view of the Defiant and find a perfect match for the bridge set, then, using an estimated length for said set, come up with a pretty much irrefutable number? Anyone know what that was? The relative appearance doesn't matter to some degree, if you can accept the changing image idea. All you need is something that you can compair to a known internal length (like a bridge set or a shuttlebay) and you should be able to figure out everything else, since the parts of the ship are constant relative to the other parts of the ship.
------------------ "I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people . . ." To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition." - Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1791
posted
Kosh: We may be discussing ship lengths but it's in context with this topic. Try and read between the lines, my friend.
TerraZ: I'm with you here. There are some things we see on screen which we just have to accept as a mistake or, at the least, an inconsistency.
Frank: I do personally think the Defiant is ~120m. There are definately some "canon" scenes that refute that, though. For one (other), the escape pods are rather small even at 120m.
Omega: This subspace field/shield bubble theory is just silly. Why can't we just accept that the producers make mistakes? They are human, too. The Defiant analysis you're talking about calculated the bridge to be 9m long. It assumed that the MSD depicted the bridge perfectly and then worked out a overall ship length of 76m off that. Unfortunately, it is debatable how accurate the MSD is and/or exactly where the bridge is.
------------------ "Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets) Dax's Ships of STAR TREK
[This message has been edited by Dax (edited October 23, 1999).]
posted
Sorry Dax, it's just that the argument has been around the board longer then I have. On a good day, I laugh at it, on a bad day, I post stupid **** like I did above.
------------------ "One Tequila, Two Tequila, Three Tequila, Floor". George Carlin
Jim Phelps
watches Voyager AFTER 51030
Member # 102
posted
My first post on these boards a couple of years ago, if I recall correcly, was an argument about why the Defiant has to be 120 meters long. I remember quoting Paradise Lost, and IDCrisis replying by bringing up the 560' size by Rick Sternbach....
And So It Began...
Boris
------------------ "Wrong again. Although we want to be scientifically accurate, we've found that selection of [Photon Energy Plasma Scientifically Inaccurate as a major Star Trek format error] usually indicates a preoccupation with science and gadgetry over people and story."
---a Writers' Test from the Original Series Writer's Guide
posted
Boris: I think it probably actually began somewhere right around the time "The Search" first aired... *L*
------------------ "I think you people have proven something to the world: that a half a million kids can get together and have three days of fun and music� and have nothing but fun and music." -Max Yasgur; Woodstock, NY; August, 1969
posted
Kosh: Apology sincerely accepted. We all have those days. I'm sure I've posted some crackers.
Boris: I noticed something interesting the other day. 120m is the exact average of the two "official" Defiant figures - (69+171)/2=120. Now, how is that for a coincidence?
------------------ "Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets) Dax's Ships of STAR TREK
OK, if you take a known length within the ship (take the length of the Bridge of the Defiant, for example), then compair the internal length of the bridge to the external location of the bridge, you should be able to come up with an internally consistant length. Assuming, of course, the ratio of one area of a ship to another never changes. So if anyone can get their hands on the official blueprints used to design the Def bridge (or someone that can tell them exactly how long it was), and compair the length to the length of the bridge in a top shot of the Defiant from ANY production, you should be able to come up with a correct, internally consistant length.
Of course, then you have to deal with compairing the lengths of two different ships, which is what causes all this controversy. My suggestion about the subspace field affecting the apparent size is an attempt to reconsile the length problems between multiple ships. So what's wrong with it, anyway? We don't know how a subspace field works. For all we know, it COULD make a ship look larger or smaller, while leaving the physical ship the same size.
------------------ "I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That "all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people . . ." To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition." - Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1791
The ship is probably slightly shorter than the Ent-A. We need better pics of the real model to be sure, though.
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