capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
Enter Captain Mike with his encyclopedic knowledge of the non-canon.
quote:--What kind of wreckage was salvaged after the battle? anything? -- Is there some kind of memorial to Wolf 359?
The TNG comic storyline "The Worst of Both Worlds" by Michael Jan Friedman depicted Wolf 359's battle site as being a large debris field left as a memorial orbiting the star (lots of nacelles floating around!)
quote:- How did they get assimilated crewmembers back to the Delta Quad?
The novel 'The Return' was written by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens (under the pen-name 'William Shatner') depicting that Borg ships use transwarp tunneling escape transporters that deposit undamaged drones and components at depot dumps on far-off planets. When Kirk was reanimated and assimilated, and about to die, he found himself whisked to a dump world that had been liberated by the virus which created Hugh, and the Freed Borg helped him overcome his terminal nanites. Presumably this is how the queen escaped the BoBW cube to be in 'First Contact' and then escaped again to be in Voyager.
quote:-- Where'd all the escape pods go?
Well Mojo's book will reveal that ;-) . A Voyager comic published by Marvel depicted several escape pods hat linked together and then became trapped in a temporal vortex that deposited them in the Delta Quadrant several years later. They were supposedly drawn by temporal gravitation, back to the time they originated in (along with a Voyager engineer who was along for the ride in one of the pods) This raises a question if they reappeared years later, or back at the battle site to be picked up in the later timeframe (with a VGR crewman!??).
quote:-- DS9 "The Valiant" mentioned the old starship USS Republic (used as an Academy training ship), which presumably hadn't left the solar system in fifty years (as of 2374). This was presumably an attempt to reconcile Kirk's being a Lieutenant on the Republic while still at the academy. Also, the Republic was presumably an old Constitution (NCC-1371) class ship. In any case, could the old girl have had something to do (or not to do) with Wolf 359?
Kirk was a cadet ensign on the Republic, not a lieutenant. And being an officer while at the academy has been explained. Its just how Starfleet does it. (presumably Kirk [and Saavik] were in post graduate [and therefore post-commission] command school). The Republic as being a 100 year old training vessel is a mess. Never mention it again. And the unmentionable training ship could just have easily been docked immobile around Venus or Pluto or any other place out of the Borg line of entry. And out of commission because its warp core was being worked on. Or its bridge module being swapped. Or its warp nacelles being fumigated. Like i said, its a mess. Dont speak of the Rep.. of that ship.
quote:-- Where exactly is wolf 359 in relation to earth?
This extremely faint star is the third closest to Sol after Alpha Centauri 3 and Barnard's Star. It is located only about 7.8 light-years away in the east central part (10:56:29+07:00.7, ICRS 2000.0) of Constellation Leo, the Lion -- south of Chertan or Coxa (Theta Leonis). However, the star is much too dim to be visible to the naked eye. It was discovered photographically by Max (Maximilian Franz Joseph Cornelius) Wolf (1863-1932), a pioneer of astrophotography who discovered hundreds of variable stars and asteroids, and about 5,000 nebulae by analyzing photographic plates and developing the "dry plate" in 1880 and the "blink comparator" in 1900 with the Carl Zeiss optics company in Jena, Germany. A very cool, main sequence red dwarf (M5.8Ve), Wolf 359 is our Sun's dimmest stellar neighbor within 10 ly, with only 1/63,000th of Sol's luminosity. If our Sun, Sol, were replaced by Wolf 359, then an observer on Earth would need a telescope to see its round shape clearly, and daylight would be very dim with only ten times the brightness of full moonlight with Sol. On the other hand, Wolf 359 is a Flare Star (that has been designated with the variable star name CN Leonis) and so can brighten dramatically from time to time. Flares on Wolf 359, however, are rarer and not as violent as those observed on Proxima Centauri, Kruger 60 B, or UV Ceti. The star has a mass between 10 and 20 percent of Sol's with about 10 percent of Sol's diameter, which is roughly the size of Jupiter. It may be less than 10 billion years old. The distance from the star where an Earth-type planet would be comfortable with liquid water is about 0.005 AU, but at that distance, the rotation of the planet would be tidally locked with the star so that one side would have eternal daylight and the other would be in eternal darkness. Some alternative names and useful star catalogue numbers are: CN Leonis, Gl 406, G 45-20, LFT 750, LTT 12923, and LHS 36. The Hubble Space Telescope was recently used to search for faint companions about Wolf 359. No large orbiting body (stellar or substellar, such as a brown dwarf) were found as close as the distance from the Earth to the Sun -- i.e., one AU -- from Wolf 359. Previous searches using ground-based, photographic astrometry and infrared speckle methods had already failed to find a large orbiting body at greater distances from the star. The following star systems are located within 10 ly of Wolf 359.
Star System, Spectra & Luminosity, Distance in LY Ross 128 M4.1-5 Ve 3.8 Lalande 21185 M2.1 Ve 4.1 Wolf 424 AB M5.5 Ve M5.5 Ve 7.3 DX Cancri M6.5Ve 7.7 LP 731-58 M6.5V 7.7 Sol G2 V 7.8 Proxima Centauri M5.5 Ve 8.2 Alpha Centauri AB G2 V K0-1 V 8.3 Procyon 2 F5 V-IV DA-F/VII 8.6 LTT 12352 M3.5 V 8.7 AD Leonis M3 Ve 8.8 Sirius AB A0-1 Vm DA2-5/VII 9.0 Luyten's Star M3.5-5 V 9.8 DENIS 1048-39 M9 V? ~10
quote:-- How exactly does Shelby think the fleet can be back up in a year at the end of BoBW?
Probably they were going to build 39 new ships, and one year was the time estimated to do it. What, ask a stupid question....
quote:-- What, if anything, changed in the collective when the cube was destroyed?
Well, imagine the collective as equalling [i]x[/i. Then let x = x-1.
[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
-On a sad day with the flu, I counted the number of ships at the end of "Call to Arms" at 97.
-It's Annika HANSEN and Admiral HANSON. No relation.
-The odds of Saturn, Jupiter, Mars and Earth being in a straight line are not astronomical, but not too likely. However, they don't have to be in a straight line out from the sun in order to make sense, which increases the chances. If you subscribe to the notion that "Jupiter Outpost 92" was not in orbit of Jupiter, but somewhere in the orbital shell, that makes it even more likely. However, all of this is not taking into account whether or not each planet would be in the same orbital plane, which they rarely are.
-Re: The Good Ship Republic. Assuming she hadn't left the Terran system in 50 years (according to Cadet Collins), and as they were talking about the ship in the present tense (as in "still in service with the Academy") then it certainly wasn't at Wolf 359. My question was referring to where she *was*, and what she was doing while the cube was hovering over Earth. Perhaps if she was still warp-capable, she would be in the charge of mixed non-Fleet ships leaving the system, which didn't last very long before the Enterprise did her sleepy thang. Or perhaps she was hanging in orbit around one of the planets, Starfleet Command having realized that one outdated ship probably couldn't halep any more than 40 more current ones...
[Edit: Captain Mike doesn't like talking about the Republic. I do, and I think it could very well be that same ship Kirk served on. So there. Nyahhh... ]
-If you were the Sol system and were facing to the galactic core, if you raised your right arm and pointed it about 45 degrees up and slightly back of your body, you'd be pointing at Wolf 359 - 7.6 light years away. Now, this means that the cube was not necessarily travelling directly in from the Delta Quadrant, especially if you put New Providence Colony on a straight line with Sol and Wolf 359. What this probably means is that the cube was travelling in from some point "above" the plane of the eliptic, which is definitely not a straight line if you were coming in from the DQ. This in turn suggests that it popped out of a transwarp conduit somewhere "up" there and bee-lined for Earth.
Mark
[ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
posted
I think Mojo asked what all the starship names were that were at Wolf 359... someone has a list of them don't they?
U.S.S. Awanahee SP? -- Cheyenne Class U.S.S. Melbourne -- Excelsior Class U.S.S. Saratoga -- Miranda Class Variant III U.S.S. Bonestell -- Oberth Class U.S.S. Kyushu -- New Orleans Class
someone knows/has the list.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
As far as assimilation of Starfleet personnel and their return to the Delta Quadrant, it would seem to make sense that the Borg would have assimilated some of the Wolf 359 survivors to replace battle losses. This would have most logically occurred after the Federation starships had been neutralized.
The idea that the Borg would have incurred losses is consistent with the battle seen in _First Contact_ . . . the Borg ship was damaged, despite the ability to adapt.
(Of course, I still like the original movie script element that there were three cubes, and that there was a running battle all versus Starfleet all the way to Earth.)
As Picard revealed in First Contact, the Queen was at Wolf 359. She escaped the cube's destruction, probably in an escape sphere.
As shown in "Endgame", there is a transwarp conduit aperture less than a light-year from Earth.
One might therefore assume that the Queen and some drones (at least a few of which would have been assimilated at Wolf 359) escaped in a sphere, reached that transwarp aperture, and returned to the Delta Quadrant.
And, bingo, you have an explanation as to how the Queen escaped, and how there were Wolf 359 drones in the Delta Quadrant.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
posted
The Queen could also have escaped by FTPing herself to a safe location and letting the physical body behind, to perish along with the Cube. We learned in Voyager that the Queen can easily swap bodies, and that she's none the worse for wear after having been killed by Picard in "FC".
And "Endgame" even proved that the Alice Krige-shaped body used in "FC" and (according to "FC" flashbacks) in the "Best of Both Worlds" assault could be *reproduced* in detail. The Queen doesn't simply jump from body to body, she actually gets them *built*, tailored to her requirements. Or then the races represented by Alice Krige and Susanna Thompson have no individual variation, so an assimilated body from those species would always have the same facial features. But that doesn't sound as likely as the "tailoring" theory.
So it's possible and even probable that the Krige-model body was destroyed in "BoBW", then rebuilt for "FC", again destroyed, rebuilt in the likeness of Thompson, potentially destroyed in "Dark Frontier", potentially rebuilt in the Thompson format, apparently destroyed after "Unimatrix Zero", and rebuilt in the Krige format...
Transwarp conduits are somewhat temporary constructs, it seems. Still, there could have been one close to Earth even back in the days of "BoBW", and some assimilated samples from the Wolf 359 fleet could have been sent to a safe location through that gateway. It seems likely, though, that the Queen would have stayed with the big Cube until the very end. And unlike "FC", it doesn't appear that the entire vicinity was blinded by the debris and flash of the explosion, so an escaping Sphere would probably have been observed. Not necessarily, though - the Queen could have escaped in this "traditional" manner, too.
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
They would have noticed a sphere though.. i think the transporter makes more sense actually, a credit to Shatner's ghostwriters.
Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the Republic being Constitution-class and being 150 years old. I think that's beautiful, if wishful thinking (and therefore unlikely). But the whole Constitution issue is muddied by this situation, the mention of there being only one in 'Relics' thats in a museum,not at the Academy, and the question of how useful a Constitution-class ship would be to train 2300s cadets.
Bernd's page has the most complete analysis -- Wolf 359 Research Project -- Ambassador-class USS Yamaguchi NCC-26510 (seen in Emissary) Apollo-class USS Gage NCC-11672 (not seen, mentioned, class name devised by Okuda) Challenger-class USS Buran NCC-57580 (kitbash model from BoBW) Cheyenne-class USS Ahwahnee NCC-73260 (kitbash model from BoBW) Excelsior-class USS Melbourne NCC-62043 (seen in Emissary) Excelsior-class USS Roosevelt NCC-2573 - (VGR -Unity, mentioned only [unless you count the stock footage of the Melbourne being destroyed as an appearance]) Freedom-class USS Firebrand NCC-68723 (kitbash seen in BoBW) Miranda-class USS Saratoga NCC-31911 (seen in Emissary) Nebula-class USS Bellerophon NCC-62048 (seen in Emissary) New Orleans-class USS Kyushu NCC-65491 (kitbash from BoBW field) Niagara-class USS Princeton NCC-59804 (kitbash from BoBW field) Oberth-class USS Bonestell NCC-31600 (seen in Emissary) Rigel-class USS Tolstoy NCC-62095 (mentioned and not seen, class name devised by Okuda) Springfield-class USS Chekov NCC-57302 (kitbash from BoBW) (Unknown class) USS Liberator NCC-67016 - (This ship lost a shuttle that was seen in BoBW scrap) Constitution hull -- (1701 refit from ST:III seen before BoBW commercial break. This could have been a Constitution or a variant of the Constitution design that had the same secondary hull) Proto-Nebula -- (Nebula study model seen in BoBW) Excelsior study 1 -- (study model seen in BoBW) Excelsior study 2 -- (study model seen in BoBW) 4 Nacelle Excelsior study -- (study model seen in BoBW) Phase 2 study 1 -- (study model possibly seen in BoBW) Phase 2 study 2 -- (study model possibly seen in BoBW)
Shatner's novel adds the Miranda-class USS Hoagland.
Thats 23 ships..
[OH.. i should point out that the two class-names that werent seen could refer to one of the ships we dont know the name of.. for example, the Apollo-class could be one of the phase2 protos and the Rigel-class could be one of the nx2000 protos. That would cut this list down to 21 (or 20 if you disregard shatner)]
[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
Well, I think the dialogue in "Relics" went something like this:
Picard: Constitution-class.
Scotty: Aye, you're familiar with 'em?
Picard: There's one in the Fleet museum.
It *does* imply that the one in the fleet museum is the only one left. However, if we were to mince words, the one in the museum could have been a non-refitted version of the Connie, and the Republic could have been a refitted edition. This would make more sense than to train cadets on a truly outdated configuration of starship, and would serve to make Picard's reminiscence more poignant, as he was standing on a non-refit bridge. Further circumstantial evidence could have included Sisko & crew's sense of wonder as they were walking around the E-nil in "Trials and Tribble-ations", since the odds are some of them may have trained aboard the Republic. Ditto if they kept around the Enterprise bridge simulator from ST2.
And of course, it could simply mean that the Republic was NOT a Constitution-class ship. The class has never been explicitly mentioned in any show, after all, and was only established in the Encyclopedia and the Franz Joseph manual. Following Occam's Razor though, it probably was, lending to the credence of the "Republic = E-Refit" theory above.
But bringing this back to Wolf 359, neither the Republic or the museum ship would have been there, as Collins spoke of the Republic in the present tense and Picard spoke of the museum ship the same way - both after the battle. Since screen evidence strongly suggests that a Constitution class was at Wolf 359, unless that ship was a mothballed or reserve ship, there exists a possibility that a refit Connie or two may have been in service with Starfleet at the time - even more evidence in favour of the Republic.
Mark
[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
quote:The idea that the Borg would have incurred losses is consistent with the battle seen in _First Contact_ . . . the Borg ship was damaged, despite the ability to adapt.
Keep in mind that the First Contact battle was the first encounter the Borg had with quantum torpedoes. This could quite easily have caused much of the damage seen, and thus, isn't a 'mirror' of the Wolf 359 battle.
posted
it was also the first battle the borg had with Defiant type pulse phaser cannons. there could have been more Defiant class ships fighting in the running battle then just the Defiant herself.
posted
Yes, but, er, most of the ships were equipped with quantum torpedoes. That strikes me as the reason for the Borg's damage, not a faster firing phaser (it can be argued that the only reason the pulse phaser did ANY damage to the Borg was because of the havoc the quantum torpedoes caused).
posted
Uh... In "First Contact" the ONLY ship seen to fire quantum torpedoes is the Enterprise. The Defiant only used phasers, and the rest of the ships used phasers and regular ol' photon torpedoes. And then in "Insurrection" we're given only normal photons from everyone...
posted
Yuppers. NCC-71805 is the reg number for the Endeavour.
As for a Galaxy class ship, at least one Trek novelist has posited that one of them was lost there (Peter David, in "Vendetta"). No name or registration number was given for that.
Given how many Galaxies we see later, I personally have no real trouble with having one destroyed there, though if you DO have one there the reg number and/or name should be visible, or else everyone's gonna be confusing her with the Enterprise...
posted
Well, considering that the USS Galaxy wasn't involved (we saw it later on), nor the Yamato (already destroyed), nor the Enterprise-D, only the three galaxies launched as part of the initial 6-ship order could possibly have been ready. And that's an absolute upper limit. One of those three would have had to been the Odyssey, which like the Galaxy couldn't have been involved. So, that means two Galaxy-class ships out of the whole Federation fleet could potentially have been included in Hanson's armada. Now, unless they were still being outfitted post-construction in orbit of Earth or Mars, sheer statistics seems to imply that its highly unlikely that one of the forty ships was a Galaxy.
[ January 17, 2002: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
]
Printer-friendly view of this topic
