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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
Look at my post on the second page. Its got a few more ships.
BTW.. i like the idea of the Phase II ENT being Apollo-class, but that is hearsay when it comes to canon (maybe Mojo can get Okuda's blessing and 'make it so').
And dont forget to mention the unseen Rigel-class Tolstoy...
and the Constitution hull may not have been a Constitution, but instead a variant that looks identical from the underside.
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
Registered: Sep 2001
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I don't think there were ANY constitutions at the time of TNG - why else would they have gone to the trouble of dubbing "constellation" over Geordie's "constitution" in "The Battle" - apart from not wanting to drag out the connie model - and keep the series separate.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
I personally like the idea that the hull seen in BoBW was from the design we used to call the Challenger-class.. a Constellations saucer and upper nacelle carriage, but with a constitution secnodary hull.. maybe Mojo could 'make that so' as well (I'm just full of requests today)
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Registered: Sep 2001
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...I really don't like the idea of a Galaxy class ship at Wolf 359 at all.
First, if the ship's hull and systems were not complete (as Mojo would like to suggest), what would be the point of sending it out against a Borg cube?
Second, if it was a completed and commissioned Galaxy class, it would seriously damage the reputation of this class even further. Ever since the Ent-E arrived, the Galaxy class is constantly being pounded upon by fans, calling it "outdated", "weak", and inferior. It goes totally against what the class was supposed to represent, the best technological achievemnt of Starfleet at the time. Why must we destroy yet another one?
If more "first-rate" ships are needed, I would prefer seeing a few more Ambassador class ships (something we didn't see much of at all in TNG), maybe even an Akira and Steamrunner or two.
Registered: Jul 2000
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Capainmike, the Challenger class didn't look at all like a Connie, it was a Galaxy variant, and a study model for it exists.
Unfortunately I'm late for this debate, and everything seems to have been well answered so far, so kudos to you all. But I might add a small theory to further embellish the reasoning behind Shelby's line- 'the fleet will be back up in year', although it has been covered already. This is an exceprt from a faq section on my site:
Being centre stage to the Federation one would think Earth would have a great deal of defensive measures in place - hopefully more so than that feeble array of small fighters that emerged from Jovian orbit to intercept the Borg Cube in 'The Best of Both Worlds'! So I think it's highly sensible for them to employ a specialised unit of Starships, perhaps mostly made up of older vessels, but well armed, and with skeleton crews but with the means to supply full compliments to make up the numbers at short notice.
Such crews could reside or operate from outposts and scrambling stations in and round the Sol area, and can be called upon in an emergency to man these specially deployed interception forces. Such reasoning regarding the use of these older vessels, used only in extreme situations may explain why most of the ships known destroyed at Wolf 359 were in some respects lesser known classes with older designations such as Cheyenne, Rigel, Challenger, Springfield, Freedom, Apollo, Niagara, etc. So, if such a First Fleet or 'Home Fleet' exists, Shelby may have been referring to this fleet when describing the loss of 39 vessels and that it would take a year to 'get (this fleet) back up'. It may also explain her obvious familiarity with the ships of this First Fleet, as she seemed to be able to easily identify them from a mass of burning debris from the Enterprise viewscreen as they cruised through the battlefield aftermath.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
posted
I'm just going to chip in with my $0.02 regarding the Galaxy at Wolf 359...
There are many examples of ships that are supposed to be grand, superior designs, that end up performing much less successfully than heralded. The Titanic is an extreme example, for instance.
I agree that the Galaxy-class is definitely one of the best... but in being the jack-of-all-trades, it falls slightly behind in the combat arena, since so many of its systems are devoted to scientific and civilian systems. Therefore, when the ships are thrown into all-out combat, they might be a little disadvantaged.
Also, consider that the Galaxy-class is hampered by the fact that there are very few (or relatively few) ships of the class in operation. Therefore, ANY lost ship becomes a Big Deal. However, you have to consider the circumstances.
Losing a Galaxy-class starship at Wolf 359 is not a mark of "shame" on the design... merely a sad addendum to the already tragic losses of the battle.
____________________
I've got a question that no one else apparently mentioned before:
We know that the Defiant-class project was started in reaction to the Enterprise's news about the Borg. The Defiant was supposed to be a "Borg Buster" starship... so where was it during the BOBW crisis?
Most likely the design/prototype was not completed or ready for service when the Borg cube appeared... but was there some attempt to launch the uncompleted ship and take on the cube?
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
I doubt Defiant was even *THAT* far along. Shelby told Riker and LaForge that all the weapons Starfleet was building to combat the Borg were still on the drawing board. I don't think construction even began until after Wolf 359, when Ben Sisko was assigned to the shipyard.
posted
I must say, a Galaxy at W359 is very unlikely, especially if it get's blown to pieces. The Galaxy was brand new in the 2360s, it was the best of the best Starfleet had to offer. Enterprise was only the third/fourth (depending on the NCC-71564) ship of the class.
My view on the Republic: I believe the Republic is indeed still an unrefitted Constitution. But could it not be that this ship is in the Museum, but is ALSO used for cadet training? Similar to present day trainings on sailing ships. Not so much a technical training, but more a social and 'backwards compatability' training . Of course, in Kirk's days on the Republic, she must have been still in active duty.
One scene i'd love to see... Two lone Olympic class hospital ships searching the debris for escape pods, survivors (perhaps picking up the pods of the Saratoga). Could become quite moody.
posted
There's a Canadian ship sitting in Lake Ontario that is a floating museum, but I believe that every once in a while they get a bunch of cadets to take her around the lake.
IN order of construction: 1 Galaxy, 2 Yamato, 3 E-D
Those that have registries below the Yamato were delayed, had reappropriated NCCs [NCCs assigned to a ship of another class, but given to a Galaxy ship after the original order was canceled], etc etc.
The Odessey, Venture, Magellan, Challanger--- and two others who names escape me at the moment are part of the *12* mentioned in the TNG TM [not by name, but there were 12 ships, not six].
Beyond that, those were only the 12 that were ordered in 2343... Wolf 359 was after 2365, wasn't it? Don't you guys think that after 20 years, Starfleet would have started building on those stored hulks? Don't you think that after the incident at System J-25 Starfleet would have started to increase production on it's modern vessels [Galaxy included... as well as developing the Defiant]. And let's not forget to mention the Dominion war and the duel build up [prior to the wormhole crossover and then prior to the hot war].
There is definately more than 12 GCS ships, probably not more than 30.
But as to the question... could there have been a GCS at Wolf 359. I wouldn't put it beyond possibility. But in all likelihood, I would still say no.
-------------------- Later, J _ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _ The Last Person to post in the late Voyager Forum. Bashing both Voyager, Enterprise, and "The Bun" in one glorious post.
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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
Red Admiral, i didnt say the Challenger-class.. i said 'the design we used to call the Challenger-class' .. until Bernd's research uncovered the design of the Challenger class, it was thought that that name referred to a ship that was rumored to be present at Wolf 359, designed like i said. It was attributed to a (probably misunderstood) quote from Okuda at a convention and a few fandom sources.
Oh, and Mojo, please dont destroy a Galaxy-class ship at Wolf 359. It completely uncalled for.
[ January 18, 2002: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
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Registered: Sep 2001
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Well actually, J, going strictly by canon it's most likely the Ent-D was the first Galaxy built after the prototype. Yar says so in "Yesterday's Enterprise". I realise it's in an alternate timeline but I believe it's still better evidence than the TNG Tech Manual.
Mojo, I'll be less than impressed if you destroy a Galaxy at Wolf 359. Bad idea.
I don't think it hurts to have a refit Connie at Wolf 359. For one thing, we know there's one in the BoBW graveyard. Another thing, just because the Ent-A was retired early it doesn't mean the entire class was removed from service too. We have Mirandas and Constellations at the time - why not some straggling Connies?
posted
I would say the first time Galaxies really started to get destroyed on a regular basis was the Dominion War. Before that, there wasn't an awful lot of conflict, apart from 359. The Cardassian War is probably to early for Galaxies to be heavily involved. OTOH, there probably must have been a Galaxy under construction at Utopia at the time of W359, or at least one of those spare spaceframes. And if that is the case, than it could have been spaceworthy to some degree. But I doubt it would've made it to Wolf 359 (remember the Enterprise and Galaxy only going on outer solar journeys after being declared deepspace-worthy and warp capable). An unfinished Galaxy could be pictured acting as a weapons platform to defend the Fleetyards, however.
posted
I don't recall the Galaxy class ships being destroyed at a regular basis during the Dominion War. Oh sure, they were lost along with entire fleets at the first Breen encounter, and I'm sure there were a few in the 7th Fleet that was decimated...but have we actually seen one get blown up where other vessels managed to survive?
I remember in Sacrifice of Angels, two Galaxy class ships (presumably the Magellan and the other ship that Sisko mentioned was "in too tight") leashing it out on a Galor.
We saw the USS Galaxy herself manage to survive a hull breech from an orbital weapons platform. Amazingly, the hull breech was in the engineering section, but she kept on going.
And finally, I believe we saw another Galaxy acting as a "stationary weapons platform" dishing out phaser fire while the other little ships were running around.
As to order of construction, everyone seems to forget that the Venture is a refit of the current Galaxy design with additional phaser arrays on the nacelles (thus supplementing the other relatively small phaser arrarys on the aft part of the ship). You could argue that the Venture was refit from a previous configuration, but later when CGI was used, the CGI modelers didn't notice the extra arrays. So, we had fleets of regular Galaxy class ships and only saw the refit version whenever they used stock footage of the Venture docked at DS9. Not that there's really anything wrong with that, but...
Mojo and any other CGI modelers out there, I really admire your work (without it, we would never have those fleet battles). I'm curious how you create damage for CGI action sequences, especially when you have a shot that rips off part of the hull and exposes the skeleton.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
. I think it lists all known ships.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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