Because it's the truth, Mimmy. The facts are that there is no canon evidence of which we know. That's it. So, TBTB can use whatever design they want for the Daedalus.
[ June 26, 2002, 13:41: Message edited by: Spike ]
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Just having the Daedalus appear within Starfleet isn't enough... I feel that it has to be built by the Federation--- completely designed and signed off by the Federation "Thusly signed on this date in 216X by Yadda Yadda the First President of the United Federation of Planets." Not something designed under Earth's authority.
Secondly, this does mean that it won't happen until after 2361, and we won't see one built until a number of years afterwards.
Thirdly, I also see that the original ships of the Federation fleet were member world ships that got drafted --- thus the first Daedalus will most definately have an NCC much higher than that of 01 [maybe in the hundreds]. --- This does assume that the Federation doesn't reserve the first few numbers like NCC-01 for their first self-designed and self-built class.
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Although I consider Jein's model to be the Daedalus class, the current producers probably don't, since it was not explicity identified on screen as such. I predict we'll see USS Daedalus or a ship of its class, but that it will look more advanced than NX-01, maybe an upgraded NX.
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I agree with Spike. And I hate that Daedalus design. I'd sooner see the NX-class as having an identifiable design lineage with the Constitution than think the Daedalus fits. 8)
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Although I consider Jein's model to be the Daedalus class, the current producers probably don't, since it was not explicity identified on screen as such. I predict we'll see USS Daedalus or a ship of its class, but that it will look more advanced than NX-01, maybe an upgraded NX.
I think this is completely off base and I don't know why anyone thinks this. If TPTB are going to use "Daedalus-class starships," they're far more likely to just look in the Encyclopedia or Chronology, or ask Okuda what the Daedalus looks like than they are to make up their own design.
What will most likely happen is they won't use the Daedalus at all, they'll come up with something totally different to be the NX-01's contemporary on the show. But if they do use the name, they'll use the design too, because in everybody's mind those two are solidly connected, regardless of whether or not Sisko ever said "Look! This is my Daedalus model!"
It's not a matter of "believing" the model is the Daedalus or not. It is the Daedalus.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
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Don't get me wrong, MMOM, I want that model to represent the Daedalus class just as much as you do, but I don't trust the producers to see it the same way. Their use of the Ferengi with the weaselly explanation that the Enterprise crew never learned their name suggests they'll do something similar with this model. The uncertainty surrounding the class of the model, reflected in your phase "regardless of whether or not Sisko ever said 'Look! This is my Daedalus model!'" is just the type of loophole that might be exploited by the producers. That the existence of the Daedalus class is canon can't be disputed, but the producers can weasel out of having the model represent a Daedalus class ship by saying the model is labeled Horizon, not Daedalus, and that Horizon was not established on screen as a Daedalus class ship. Of course, USS Essex is established as a Daedalus-class ship, but this model isn't labeled Essex either.
Nx-01 is clearly more advanced than this putative Daedalus-class ship, so if the Daedalus is supposed to follow NX-01, I bet they'll just ignore this model. Or maybe they'll say Daedalus existed before NX-01, is represented by this more primitive-looking model, and served until 2196 (but i doubt it).
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quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Except they had a design for the Phoenix in the chronology, and didn't use that.
Yes they did. Or, at least, they based the final design heavily on that. All they really did was change the cockpit shape so that it was the casing of a Titan V missile. Other than that and the detailing, the overall layout is the same. A cylinder with nacelles sticking out.
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Don't get me wrong, MMOM, I want that model to represent the Daedalus class just as much as you do, but I don't trust the producers to see it the same way. Their use of the Ferengi with the weaselly explanation that the Enterprise crew never learned their name suggests they'll do something similar with this model. The uncertainty surrounding the class of the model, reflected in your phase "regardless of whether or not Sisko ever said 'Look! This is my Daedalus model!'" is just the type of loophole that might be exploited by the producers. That the existence of the Daedalus class is canon can't be disputed, but the producers can weasel out of having the model represent a Daedalus class ship by saying the model is labeled Horizon, not Daedalus, and that Horizon was not established on screen as a Daedalus class ship. Of course, USS Essex is established as a Daedalus-class ship, but this model isn't labeled Essex either.
Nx-01 is clearly more advanced than this putative Daedalus-class ship, so if the Daedalus is supposed to follow NX-01, I bet they'll just ignore this model. Or maybe they'll say Daedalus existed before NX-01, is represented by this more primitive-looking model, and served until 2196 (but i doubt it).
Okay, first of all, I doubt they're going to go through the trouble of using a ship class that's already been in the canon, because they'd rather avoid having to deal with continuity if they can. For this reason, I hold no real anticipation of seeing the Daedalus in ENT. Especially since, as others have pointed out, it's really from a later period than the one in which the show takes place.
Secondly, I still believe that if for some reason they did use the Daedalus, (say, perhaps, if Okuda suggested it to them, in which case he'd point out the model to them anyway) they wouldn't spend the money or the trouble creating some new design for it. They'd use the design that already exists. TPTB are, by nature, lazy. This being the case, when they want to reference something they're probably not going to go back and watch episodes. They're probably going to just pick up the Encyclopedia and take a peek. (That's what it's there for, after all.) They're also not going to say "Hey, even though there's already a perfectly useable design here in front of us, we're going to pay someone to come up with a new one!" It simply doesn't work that way. (Maybe on a film, like First Contact, they could afford to do such a thing, but probably not on a regular production series. Hell, they're already re-using CGI models!)
I think you guys are worried about nothing. The Daedalus is such an obscure ship tha they'll probably never even think of it. And, if they do, anywhere they look they'll find that design greeting them.
-MMoM
[ June 27, 2002, 00:02: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
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I don't know why you guys are getting so bent out of shape over this. All you have to do is think like an Enterprise TPTB.
In some third-rate TNG episode produced back in 1993 or whatever, Data mentions an old Starfleet vessel from the early days of the Federation, U.S.S. Essex, NCC-173, and says it was a Daedalus class vessel.
Later, Greg Jein, in an effort to make Sisko's office more decorative, builts a small model of a ship referred to in a TOS episode, the U.S.S. Horizon, and makes up a registry number for it, NCC-176. Although Okuda conjectures that this model represents the same class as the Essex, nowhere on the model does it say that the ship is a Daedalus class vessel. So canonically, there's no evidence that this model is of that class.
Furthermore, TPTB probably know nothing of this model, or the name "Daedalus class," unless Okuda shows them his Encyclopedia as MMOM said. However, TPTB will then say "thanks for the help, Mike, but we really think we'll be doing things our way from now on, & since this model looks really cheesy and boring, if we ever do make another Starfleet vessel, it'll be much cooler looking. But please leave your book here, it might be interesting reading someday." Upon which, once Okuda walks away, they file his book in the "circular file" (i.e. garbage can).
[ June 27, 2002, 09:35: Message edited by: Dukhat ]
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
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guys.. think outside the box..
what if the Daedalus appears, as a Federation ship of the same arrangement of the one conjectured by Jein and Okuda.. but designed with the techniques and stylization of the NX-era? i think itd be an allright compromise....
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Good idea! I'm sure they can think up some technobabble expanation to explain the shape as well...
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I have always wondered why people think it's more primitive than the NX class. Just because it has a smooth and shiny hull means nothing. Just like in TOS where everything looks so low tech is a perfect explanation for it, it's the style of design at that time.
The Daedalus class could lead up to the TOS Enterprise with the smooth and shiny hull.
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quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: I don't know why you guys are getting so bent out of shape over this. All you have to do is think like an Enterprise TPTB.
In some third-rate TNG episode produced back in 1993 or whatever, Data mentions an old Starfleet vessel from the early days of the Federation, U.S.S. Essex, NCC-173, and says it was a Daedalus class vessel.
Later, Greg Jein, in an effort to make Sisko's office more decorative, builts a small model of a ship referred to in a TOS episode, the U.S.S. Horizon, and makes up a registry number for it, NCC-176. Although Okuda conjectures that this model represents the same class as the Essex, nowhere on the model does it say that the ship is a Daedalus class vessel. So canonically, there's no evidence that this model is of that class.
Furthermore, TPTB probably know nothing of this model, or the name "Daedalus class," unless Okuda shows them his Encyclopedia as MMOM said. However, TPTB will then say "thanks for the help, Mike, but we really think we'll be doing things our way from now on, & since this model looks really cheesy and boring, if we ever do make another Starfleet vessel, it'll be much cooler looking. But please leave your book here, it might be interesting reading someday." Upon which, once Okuda walks away, they file his book in the "circular file" (i.e. garbage can).
I disagree with your portrayal of how TPTB would think.
1. They'd never just "remember" the mention of the Daedalus in "Power Play." They don't care about little details like that. No one going to jump up and say "Hey, remember when that one ship was mentioned in TNG?" If the ship comes to their attention, it will be through the Encyclopedia or Mike Okuda or Greg Jein, etc. they won't think of it themselves.
2. When they do look in the Encyclopedia, etc., they're just going to take what's in there for granted. They're not going to go "Hmmm, I wonder if this ship ever actually appeared in the show..." They're just going to assume it.
3. If they do decide they want a re-design, it will propbably just be (as Capt. Mike said) on thorder of what they did with the Phoenix. Same overall layout, just different detailing.
-MMoM
[ June 27, 2002, 14:45: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
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I don't mind some detail changes... just as long as it is still basically a sphere with a cylinder trailing behind not to mention nacelles attached. This would be no different than the developing of the Nebula from Pathfinder in BoBWs to the 3/4ths oval pod to the triangle pod to the full scale saucer Nebula...
We've only seen the Daedalus as a model, and I personally feel we can take some liberaties with that. We can't see every detail of the ship, and we can assume some artistic license in the creation of that model. Given those facts I don't mind some changes from the images I'm used to.
Heck, I would have said the same thing about the NX-01 if they had really done that, but they didn't... they just changed the details of an existing ship.
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MMoM: Everything you said was what I was trying to say too. Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote.
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
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