Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
Do we know for sure there has been only one model? Somwhere between Bozeman and Saratoga there is something wrong. They modified the Miranda for 'Cause and Effect', OK. This could also be the reason we never saw that model on TNG again. Later, they needed a Saratoga, and lacking several of the original parts or whatever, they decide to make it another variant instead of a standard-Miranda. That's where we are.
But there has been another Miranda appearance after 'Emissary' - Generations, and later 'Way of the Warrior'. So why the hell did anyone modify the Saratoga again just for a 2-second appearance? No one would have noticed that it is not the common model but a variant. But they did it.
My theory? Either one of the less-detailed models of the Saratoga was redone and used here (it was said that there have been several less detailed models of the Saratoga for the effect shots and blow-up sequences) or - which would be far more interesting - this is USS Trial.
If we assume 'Trial' was indeed a rearrangement of 'Reliant', and Trial was the name of the Miranda in WotW, probably a smaller modelkit (I have it, too, and I know there has even been an illuminated version), the starship Trial could have been prepared for and used in Generations and later reused for WotW, one year later. (Of course, they could have taken the larger model, too, but it was still Saratoga, and DS9 fans might have remembered that)
I can live with it, and we'd finally have a name for the Miranda in Generations (all speculation, of course, but if you rewatch the scene in VII again, you'll see that there was absolutely no need for a detailed model. The Miranda was a far-background-ship only).
-------------------- "This is great. Usually it's just cardboard walls in a garage."
Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
quote:Do we know for sure there has been only one model? Somwhere between Bozeman and Saratoga there is something wrong. They modified the Miranda for 'Cause and Effect', OK. This could also be the reason we never saw that model on TNG again. Later, they needed a Saratoga, and lacking several of the original parts or whatever, they decide to make it another variant instead of a standard-Miranda. That's where we are.
I've often wondered about this as well. Your "timeline" seems to be correct AFAIK, and seems to make sense to me. A few other tidbits:
-The Saratoga model was actually painted white, as opposed to the original light-blueish/gray of the model previously painted.
-The less-detailed models that were blown up were much smaller than the Miranda studio model, presumably from model kits.
quote:But there has been another Miranda appearance after 'Emissary' - Generations, and later 'Way of the Warrior'. So why the hell did anyone modify the Saratoga again just for a 2-second appearance? No one would have noticed that it is not the common model but a variant. But they did it.
My question is this: Just when did they stop using the physical model and started using the CGI? Was it during WoTW or after?
quote:I can live with it, and we'd finally have a name for the Miranda in Generations (all speculation, of course, but if you rewatch the scene in VII again, you'll see that there was absolutely no need for a detailed model. The Miranda was a far-background-ship only).
I'd have to disagree with you here. There is NO WAY that a plastic model kit would be used in a feature film, no matter how much they beautified it. It would still be too easy to spot as fake. I don't agree that the Miranda was a far-background ship. It was just smaller than the Nebula along side it. They might have used it for WoTW, but not for Generations.
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged
Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
If the Miranda in Generations was not a model kit and it was not the Saratoga, we'd have a third ship. Was the Farragut a completely new model or just a modification of the original Sutherland?
Since the Oberth appeared on FC, I have no idea what happened to that ship after Generations. Either the ship was used at the Exhibition and later returned for some shots for FC, or the vessel in FC was CGIed. Same for the Nebula - it could have been the Leeds/Farragut-model or an early CGI - and the Miranda. Personally, I doubt those three were CGIs. It seems strange that exactly these 3 ship classes were choosen to appear on FC after they had used them for Generations. From that point of view, I tend to say all three were physical models, mixed up with the four new CGI-ship classes and a model Sovereign.
I guess then FC was the third appearance of the mysterious Miranda, after Generations and - possibly - WotW. (Do we know for sure the ship in WotW was just a model kit? Maybe the Trial/Reliant relabel-thing was just a coincidence. Or they used the same decals for the model that came with the model kit, for some reason.)
BTW, if the Oberth from Generations was the same ship they used on the show, too, there's a good chance the Miranda wasn't much larger than the model kit. The Oberth model wasn't that large, either.
-------------------- "This is great. Usually it's just cardboard walls in a garage."
Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
quote: The less-detailed models that were blown up were much smaller than the Miranda studio model, presumably from model kits.
When have they ever blown up a Miranda model? All the ones in TNG survived fine, the Saratoga looked like the "explosion overlayed on model effect", and by the time of "Sacrifice of Angels", they were all CGI anyway.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: When have they ever blown up a Miranda model? All the ones in TNG survived fine, the Saratoga looked like the "explosion overlayed on model effect", and by the time of "Sacrifice of Angels", they were all CGI anyway.
I think it was said in the DS9 Companion that they created seveal miniatures for that sequence, and I'm quite sure they were talking about the Saratoga. Maybe the effect didn't look like they wanted it to look and they decided for another way to film it.
-------------------- "This is great. Usually it's just cardboard walls in a garage."
Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
The Saratoga blowup models were custom builds, not model kits. They were far larger than a model kit, maybe slighter longer than a metre. There were three of them, so that if the explosion didn't deliver, they could redo it. They got it on the first try.
Sometimes Discovery Channel's Movie Magic actually is worthwhile, when it's not about how Freddy Kreuger's head's all gooey.
Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov: If the Miranda in Generations was not a model kit and it was not the Saratoga, we'd have a third ship. Was the Farragut a completely new model or just a modification of the original Sutherland?
Since the Oberth appeared on FC, I have no idea what happened to that ship after Generations. Either the ship was used at the Exhibition and later returned for some shots for FC, or the vessel in FC was CGIed. Same for the Nebula - it could have been the Leeds/Farragut-model or an early CGI - and the Miranda. Personally, I doubt those three were CGIs. It seems strange that exactly these 3 ship classes were choosen to appear on FC after they had used them for Generations. From that point of view, I tend to say all three were physical models, mixed up with the four new CGI-ship classes and a model Sovereign.
I guess then FC was the third appearance of the mysterious Miranda, after Generations and - possibly - WotW. (Do we know for sure the ship in WotW was just a model kit? Maybe the Trial/Reliant relabel-thing was just a coincidence. Or they used the same decals for the model that came with the model kit, for some reason.)
BTW, if the Oberth from Generations was the same ship they used on the show, too, there's a good chance the Miranda wasn't much larger than the model kit. The Oberth model wasn't that large, either.
The Farragut was an ILM refurbishment of the standard Nebula studio model from TNG, IIRC. The GEN Miranda was most definitely the full size studio model. The Oberth (Valiant NCC-20000) also seems to be the standard studio model.
There has been no real evidence one way or another (to my knowledge) as to whether the WotW Miranda was a model kit or a studio model, but it wouldn't appear to be CGI. The Trial/Reliant bit is just speculation, and could very well be a coincidence, but it is quite interesting.
I always thought the Miranda in FC looked CGI, but I don't recall if there existed a digital model of the ship at that point.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
I don't think any of the ships besides Akira, Steamrunner, Sabre and Norway was CGI. On the other hand, I remember a quote from the Making Of-book where Alex Yeager said they had created 'half a dozen CGI-vessels for the battle sequence'. Maybe it was just a rough estimation, but since both E-E and the cube were physical models, maybe he was referring to another 2 old, less detailed ships for the background done as CGI.
But as far as I know, the first CGI-Miranda was the Majestic in 'Sacrifice of Angels'. If they used the same CGI-model for the other episodes of the episode, too, then it's OK, but if not, we have another Miranda-appearance in 'A Time to Stand' and 'Call to Arms', the season-finale, which was probably the same ship used in Generations, FC and WotW. Woo-hoo.
-------------------- "This is great. Usually it's just cardboard walls in a garage."
Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
I for one hope we never see a Miranda ever, ever again.
I actually wish they would have made a new class of ship for the Saratoga, but I can understand why they used the Reliant model. At the time, it was really the only small Starfleet ship they had, minus the Oberth (which would have looked stupid as an attack ship).
What I can't understand is why the VFX guys made a CGI model of the Miranda in the first place (or even of the Excelsior, for that matter). I mean, were they not inventive enough to design a new, small ship, as was done for FC? The only conclusion I can draw is that they wanted to CGI a model whose physical details were of movie quality.
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
Registered: Jun 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Except, for good or for ill, we already knew that there were legions of Excelsiors and Mirandas "out there," thanks to TNG. (Admittedly, more Excelsiors than Mirandas, or so it seemed.) To exclude them from DS9 in favor of some new ship wouldn't make much sense.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
They could have used some of the unseen Encyclopedia-ships.
-------------------- "This is great. Usually it's just cardboard walls in a garage."
Registered: Nov 2001
| IP: Logged
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
