posted
Fuck that noise. The idea of a "incorrect fact" is just shit someone made up to avoid admitting they were wrong in the first place.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
While I do agree that UFP is not the only 'superpower' in that part of the Galaxy in some episodes it does tell us that UFP space is far more vast than Klingon or Romulan space. Even the maps that have been in the episodes more or less support this. So to cover a larger amount of space, you must have a larger fleet.
In addition more territory equals more resources. More resources equals to more ships. Smaller territory equals smaller resources, which in turn equals smaller fleet.
Romulan and Klingon ships may be equal or better than their Starfleet counterparts, they nevertheless may have lesser numbers. Hell, we can't even support that their ships are more powerful than their counterparts.
The Miranda class and the Excelsior class could just be so well designed and efficient that through upgrades can do the same thing their modern counterparts can do. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Besides lets assume that the Excelsior class has a total of 200 ships. Then let's assume that the Matrix class is designed to replace them and naturally with a growing territory, have more. So Starfleet wants 300 ships of the Matrix class. Now the problem is how many ships can the Federation produce in one year? They can probably produce 40 extra ships, so let's assume 200 ships of all classes are produced a year. Now let's assume that 20 Matrix class ships are produced a year. That sounds reasonable. If you do the math, it would take 10 years to replace the Excelsior class and another 5 to have the numbers Starfleet wants.
That number can go up or down if I'm wrong about the Excelsior class's number. Also, a fleet's size entirely depends on how many ships are produced a year. Whcih brings up another point: What if Starfleet in addition to producing more ships to it's ever growing territory, and replacing other older ships (not individual classes but ships) cannot produce extra ships to replace the apparantly lagre numbers of Excelsior and Miranda class?
In addition, it seems that Starfleet is unwilling to replace something that works. Look at the Oberth class, if we go by it's registry, she should have been an early 23rd century design.
An example would be the Klingons, they reuse and reuse the same exterior design. Now the difference between a 2151 battlecruiser and a 2378 battlecruiser would huge, but the exterior would still be the same. Common sense (even for Klingons) would be if the design is not capable anymore, don't reuse it, yet they still do and in more numbers than before. Couldn't the same apply to the Excelsior or Miranda?
Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged
quote: While I do agree that UFP is not the only 'superpower' in that part of the Galaxy in some episodes it does tell us that UFP space is far more vast than Klingon or Romulan space. So to cover a larger amount of space, you must have a larger fleet.
Asssuming that you ARE covering that amount of space. Perhaps only militant empires jealously guard their borders? Based on the shows, it doesn't seem that the Feds would be able to mount a timely response to anything happening in their space if it wasn't for the Enterprises - and while we have little knowledge of Klingon or Romulan reaction times in their respective spaces, generally they seem to rise to border incursions pretty aggressively, with ST6 being basically the only time our heroes got past a border with impunity (and that was an obvious Matthias Rust analogy, highlighting the sorry state of the Empire at the time).
quote: In addition more territory equals more resources. More resources equals to more ships. Smaller territory equals smaller resources, which in turn equals smaller fleet.
OTOH, the vehemence with which you exploit your territory may also matter.
quote: Romulan and Klingon ships may be equal or better than their Starfleet counterparts, they nevertheless may have lesser numbers. Hell, we can't even support that their ships are more powerful than their counterparts.
Indeed, basically every reference confirms that Fed ships are individually better. Even the big Rommie warbirds are explicitly slower than the Galaxies.
Although the Feds after Khitomer may not have ruled completely sovereign, there'd probably still be much less military competition than before. Space is big, and when your closest neighbors are in a rut and not threatening you, you probably won't plunge into an escalation race just because the distant Tholians or Breen are arming themselves. In such a stagnated threat environment, it would make sense to use existing ship designs to their max. Or even revert to older desings, since the threat environment now is back to what it was a century ago, with the Klingons (and, after Tomed, Romulans) gone!
posted
Good points there, but i don't have a problem with the fact that the majority of starfleet are not warships, Picard was not happy at the idea of wargames in 'peak performance' and Starfleet is a defensive and exploritory organisation, but the age and shambolic state of its fleet does not befit its status. The two Mirranda's in Sacrifice of Angels doing cartwheels after a single torpedo each hits their saucer, plus on three occasions (Emmisary, Tears of the Prophets, what you leave behind) We've seen Excelsior saucer sections literally MELTING under attack. As far as exploritory service go, A warbird may be slower than a Galaxy but they must be a great deal faster than an Excelsior or the Hood would have travelled with the Enterprise to make contact with Tin Man. If modern starships are able to be built and financial constraints do not exist, why does starfleet risk the lives of its personnel in such ways? A modern day diver would not travel to the ocean floor with a hundred year old suit!
-------------------- The disappearance of Donald Love
Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
posted
It wasn't just the Mirandas and the Excelsiors that were being blown apart. Look at the one Akira doing cartwheels when she got hit mulitple times by the ODPs in the season finale of DS9's sixth season. Hell even the USS Galaxy herself got chunks blown out of her.
-------------------- Matrix If you say so If you want so Then do so
Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
It's possible those ships had already taken multiple hits and their shields were already considerably weakened or had completely collapesed in those area or throughout the entire ship.
-------------------- Is it Friday yet?
Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
starfleet obviously knows most of its ships are useless, thats why whenever there's a first contact with a hostile race they wait for a Galaxy to arrive before doing anything. They sent the Enterprise to the Neutral Zone when the Romulans resurfaced (Which was outclassed) likewise when the Jem Hadar first appeared Starfleet postponed action until the Odysey turned up, she then dumped her civilians, swaggered through the wormhole like some starship equivalant of clubber lang from Rocky 3, then was promptly rammed and detroyed by a ship the size of a school bus.
-------------------- The disappearance of Donald Love
Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
posted
Two incidents that don't completely support your theory since the Enterprise was already near the Neutral Zone (and Starfleet had already sent the Berlin ahead of time hoping it would be enough) and the Odyssey was already the nearest ship to DS9 to assist against the Jem'Hadar
-------------------- Is it Friday yet?
Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Yah. Large military-esque organizations always put people in harms way knowing that a huge chunk of its resources are ill-equipped to do their jobs.
Are a large number of the ships they build intentionally not suited for heavy combat situations? Yes. Are they useless? No.
posted
Again folks, I will have to reiterate that its not the tactical power i'm on about its their age and ability. As I said above the Excelsiors are slower than warbirds, and don't last long in a fight. What were starfleet ships designed for? Exploration? What would a ship need to accomplish this task? The latest defenses, powerfull engines, comfortable and plentifull crew accomadations. A galaxy has all of these, most other starfleet ships are too small, too slow, and too weak to perform any of these tasks WELL.
Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
posted
What about the Excelsior Class U.S.S. Lakota? So old and slow that it had the Defiant one shot away from biting it. With upgraded technology, those designs are apparently still capable of providing needed functions.
WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
Member # 1425
posted
Ships should be designed for their functions. The one thing British aircraft have taught the world is that they can build a plane that will do everything but excel at nothing. Their use of the Harrier in the Falklands proved the implausability of this concept and it cost them 5 ships. The Harrier is a fantastic aircraft in it's limited role as a close support fighter but is useless in the CAP (Combat Air Patrol) role.
The same goes for Starfleet vessels. There should be specific types and classes for specific purposes.
Look at the Connies. In ST3 the Klingon says "Federation Battlecruiser" when the E approaches. That would tend to infer that there are larger more powerful classes out there. Perhaps in her day, the connies were THE class of battleship. BUT, just as old U.S. Navy BB's at Pearl Harbor were top of the line in their day (the 1920's) two decades later they were barely even second rate ships and certainly no match for an Iowa or Yamato class BB. And now, not even the Tomahawk equipped Iowas are of any real significance as anything other than floating museums.
Another issue I see is where are the Carriers? When you see the little runabouts hefting photons and such, why didn't Starfleet produce true Fighters and Bombers? The Maquis gave Starfleet fits with their nimble little ships.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
posted
I think the only reason the Maquis caused Starfleet real headaches is because they didn't want to destroy their ships. They weren't out to kill the Maquis. If a larger class starship really needed to defend itself against a half dozen Maquis ships, I have no problem believing that it could. As hit an run fighters, smaller ships like that work fine, but even in the large battle to retake the station, they really proved quite useless. It's not like flying a plane. The ship would have to cover a huge distance to get out of range after laying down fire.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
