posted
It would be nice to acknowledge the existence of different "calibers" of phasers, even if the Reliant ones really weren't the sort of super-cannon fanfic has made them to be.
Something on that vein could still be done in ENT, where the hero ship seems to have primary and secondary batteries, the latter mounted closer to the saucer rim and usually employed for "love pats". Perhaps only "super-battleships" like the Galaxy class feature a uniform battery of the best and biggest guns? (There clearly is some truth to our �ber-Stormtrooper's idea that the select few hero ships are significantly more powerful than the rest.)
posted
I don't know why the size of the fleet is an issue, thats not the point, its the dedication to building ships that befit its status thats the issue here. Sternbach in the Star Trek fact files stated the Warbird was "twice the size with half the crew, more heavily armed but slower" In All good things, 30 romulan (warbirds) are deployed to the Neutral zone whereas 15 federation starships are sent, including the 90 year old obsolete Soyuz class Bozeman. As for the Cardassian fleet being a third world navy, what do you base this on? Keldon and Galor class ships may not be a match for a Galaxy, but then the Federation only has six of them, which is the whole point again!
-------------------- The disappearance of Donald Love
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posted
As I said, Cardassian military forces have never scored any verifiable victories. Their weapons fire doesn't hurt Federation vessels. Their aggressions aren't major news in the UFP; their zany antics cause headache to a lowly commander on DS9, rather than to mighty admirals back on Earth. Only desperation stunts like fake weapons of mass destruction or lopsided alliances with evil superpowers allow them any political leverage at all. They really are like the Nazis *without* the mighty German industry to back up their bolstering.
No matter if the Feds have only six Galaxies, that is sufficient for handling ninety Galors, as per "Chain of Command"! (And if each Nebula can handle fifteen as well...)
In short, the Cardassians never were a threat, until the Dominion upgunned them. And now they are gone for good.
And "status" is irrelevant. The Feds always triumph, which is sufficient proof that their approach to starship procurement is the correct one. Heck, the "obsolete" Bozeman apparently survives every superbattle in which she partakes!
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Actually, I think my interpretation of "Defiant-like" is unsupported even by the book, which just says "pulse phasers," which could just be an explanation for their odd effect in Wrath of Khan. (Though, of course, the Enterprise's fired in exactly the same manner.)
I think the same thing: The Miranda does not sport Definat weaponry (that seems best equiped for smaller, more agile starships).
It's likely that the notion of :pulse phasers" did not originate with the Defiant project, but that class of pulse phaser was a radical re-thinking of existing technology.
quote:And "status" is irrelevant. The Feds always triumph, which is sufficient proof that their approach to starship procurement is the correct one. Heck, the "obsolete" Bozeman apparently survives every superbattle in which she partakes!
The Feds triumphing may be equally a result of how they deploy their forces in large engagments (fighters, then cruisers, them small destroyers escorting key ships, more cruisers).
Miranda class ships dont seem to be in with the first wave of the fleet- what would be the point to that?
The Bozeman survives because of the likability of Captain Frasier.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: In All good things, 30 romulan (warbirds) are deployed to the Neutral zone whereas 15 federation starships are sent, including the 90 year old obsolete Soyuz class Bozeman.
I've only seen the cut-down-to-two-episodes version of AGT, but isn't there a stalemate between the Feds and the Romulans there? If the Federation has sent it's usual mixture while the Romulans have sent twice as many better-than-the-galaxy-class ships, surely the Romulans would just ignore Starfleet and head to the anomoly? I know the Romulans are cautious, but not THAT much.
And, to be slightly serious (which is missing the point of putting the Bozeman in every fight ever), we have no proof that the Bozeman mentioned in AGT, Generations et al is the Kelsey Grammar-captained Soyez class from Cause & Effect.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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posted
We hear Captain Kelsey's voice in First Contact and it appears that he still captains the Bozeman, but it seems likely that it's a new ship with the same name.
Kirk wasn't the only studmuffin of the time.
Warbirds may indeed be twice the size, but there's also a huge hole in the middle of the ship. I don't recall the exact line, but if all that was said in AGT was "they've sent 15 warbirds", that doesn't necessarily mean 15 D'deridex classes. Warbird could be a more general term covering a variety of classes that we've not seen yet.
You're also forgetting about the scout ships that Vrenak and Jarok used. They weren't shuttles, they were starships, much like Danubes are starships. So Romulans do have more than one type of ship...
posted
The Scout and Science ships of the Romulan fleet ae indeed much larger than a Runabout but relativly puny compared with a even a Miranda class.
The term "Warbird" does indeed apply to more than one class of Romulan ship- or the Enterprise C was really outgunned at Nerandra Three (facing three Warbirds, as Captain Garrett reported)...but that would make the ships shown on TNG really outdated (that does not seem the case at all).
"Warbird" is probably a term used to describe the battleship of the Romulan fleet.
I'd also speculate that there are hundreeds of lesser ships operating within Romulan space that they dont allow the Federation to see (how better to make the Federation second-guess Romulan fleet strengths?).
It's also likely that the all the major powers use many classes of starship we nevr got to see due to bugetary constraints (the Klingons in particular!).
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posted
Tomalak's Terrix was certainly a warbird. I think the Federation fleet is a symptom of Federation pre-war policy, a good analogy would be the United States before world war II, with Rosevelt saying "We're building refrigerators while the rest of the world is building bombs"
The Federation has obviously invested its resources elsewhere before the Romulans returned and the Borg, Domminion encounters, and are now counting the cost. The major powers of the Quadrant probably knew that even if they attacked the Federation could quickly mobilise new shipbuilding pograms much as the USA did following Perl Harbour when its latent industrial might was awakened.
-------------------- The disappearance of Donald Love
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posted
The Federation enjoyed a long span or relative peace and extreme prosperty after the romulans went into seclusion. Even the wars with the Tzenkethi nad cardassians seem to have been intense -but brief- afairs.
The Wolf 359 probably woke up a generation to the dangers their overconfident Federation faced and the peacetime industrial might slowly turned towards military advancment and ship building.
Really, it's thanks to Q that the Federation survivde the Dominion War at all. If First Contact with the Dominion was made waaay back at the start of TNG, it would have all been over within weeks.
While not canon, writers from DS9 have stated that the Dominion knew of the Federation foe some time prior to the wormhole's discovery and always planned to defeat them...just not so soon.
They always intended the Dominion to be the "anti-Federation". Establishing First Contact with lesser races and taking over their wolds into the Dominion as chattle.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
It's a bit difficult to see how Q's prompting actually helped the Federation. It's not as if the ships that fought the Dominion were built after "Q Who?" or anything...
Going by the designs and registries we see, the fleet facing the Dominion was essentially the same fleet that had faced the Cardassians. Plus a scattering of Defiants and at least one Intrepid, of course.
Nor is there obvious proof of increased military alertness overall. The fleet that faced the Borg in "First Contact" seemed quite similar in size and composition to that facing the Borg in "Best of Both Worlds". A scattering of Defiants again being the less than significant exception. Warning times seemed similar, too.
posted
The Galaxy Class and several others would not have been in service during the Cardassian Wars. But its possible that the Nebbies were. And certainly the Ambassadors.
And of course the Federation is investing resources elsewhere. Colonies, exploratory efforts, etc. Starfleet is not solely devoted to its military efforts. This is not a moral failing on their part. Q described them as complacent, and quite possibly they were, having enjoyed the aforementioned period of peace. But Starfleet's and the Federation's strength is shown in their ability to adapt to new situations.
(I've held off mentioned this thus far, but I feel compelled to do so... the real reason Starfleet won and why we've only ever seen one Romulan Warbird and why we don't see tons of newer Federation starship designs is because this is a friggin' TV show. The script says the good guys win and budget concerns limit what they can do wth ship designs. Sheesh.)
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The fleet that faced the Borg in "First Contact" seemed quite similar in size and composition to that facing the Borg in "Best of Both Worlds". A scattering of Defiants again being the less than significant exception. Warning times seemed similar, too.
Timo Saloniemi
Errorenous (too low) registries on the FC ships aside, the fleet that fought the Borg at the Typhon sector must have been much larger than the one from BOBW.
Starfleet has several days in BBW to assemble stsrships for defense but it seems less than a day in FC to intercept the Borg (assuing the Enterprise is not screwing arounf the NZ more than a few hours after Picard's briefing).
After all, it took Enterprise E almost three hours to arrive at the Typhon sector (longer as the fight had been waged all the way to sector 001) and there were still about 20 ships left to continue the fight (that's assuming Starfleet did not have some sort of "home fleet" waiting at 001 just in case- if so, the ships that cofronted the Borg in the Typhon sector may have been all wiped out just as those at Wolf 359).
That means that either Starfleet had FAR more ships readily available to confront the Borg, their new ship designs are far more durable than those of BOBW, starfleet's weaponry became far more effective and powerful (as it bypasses or eliminated the Borg Subspace Field), Starfleet had kicked their ship production into overdrive, pulled many of their more powerful starships from exploration duties along the frontier to strengthen defenses of core worlds, or (likely) some combonation of all of these factors.
All of which Q could have/would have forseen as needed in the upcoming conflict with the Dominion.
...Of course, it could just as easily have been the Prophets meddeling with Sisko's life to bring him to Bajor's aid at the right time.
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WizArtist II
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn: The major powers of the Quadrant probably knew that even if they attacked the Federation could quickly mobilise new shipbuilding pograms much as the USA did following Perl Harbour when its latent industrial might was awakened.
Actually, most of the major U.S. Naval combatants of WW2 were already in the water undergoing sea trials or on the slips being built before the U.S.S. Ward opened fire on a Japanese sub that morning. The US had already seen the handwriting on the wall and was in the process of modernization and new construction. It is a common misconception that the U.S. woke up on December 8th and started building the war machine to strike back.
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posted
I agree. The US actually started building the two fleet idea way back in 1939. They were just completed in during WW2. However, according to many historians, the US had half of the total world industrial strength. Whereas the second place Industry giant was Germany with only 15% of the world's total.
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posted
(Mirandas aren't that much bigger than the Defiant, and various DS9 battle sequences find them zipping around with more or less equal agility.)
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