posted
Actually, two countries are enough to form an axis.
When reading Cartman's post I was reminded of "Monty Python and the Holy Grail". A la "Sir Robin the not-quite-so-brave-as-Sir-Lancelot"...
-------------------- Lister: Don't give me the "Star Trek" crap! It's too early in the morning. - Red Dwarf "The Last Day"
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Cartman
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Dont you need three or more countries for an "Axis"?
Hmm. What if we invite Canada as well? OK, so it wouldn't be a straight axis, but then, Iraq, Iran and North Korea aren't exactly on one line, either. B)
But back to the discussion at hand...
Although, given the option of protecting the interests of "the west" vs the soviet union, I'd pick the west any day, so the point sort of crumbles there, as it turns from an "The US is selfish" argument to a "Defense of Europe" scenario.
Yeah, you would. That's why Iran is governed by fundamentalists now, because people like you, in their SELFLESS quest to "defend Europe", didn't stop to think wether "protecting the interests of the west" by paying for them in Iranian blood was the right thing to do.
BTW, you want eloquence? I'll give you eloquence. I respond with "erudite comments" not because I have a temper, but because of the unbounded arrogance with which you shrug off your complicity in some of the most brutal crimes against humanity ever committed by resorting to this pathetic tale of Gnugnug and Uunfuufuu at Tanagra to justify the behavior of past administrations, like it matters to the people who still suffer from the outcome of your little games EVERY DAY wether such power politics are par for the course or not. Those mass graves in Iraq? People like you helped fill them, and until you drop that smug superior attitude of yours, I'm going to STAY "erudite", comprende?
As for the US "strongly supporting democratic reforms", the Bush administration doesn't even have a coherent POLICY vis-a-vis Iran: first, it cut a deal with the fundies before the war in Afghanistan, which was honored, then it arrested the Iranian rebels in Iraq because they were purported terrorists, when in fact they belonged to the only organized Iranian opposition group in existence, one that has always advocated a secular democratic government, and now it's pressuring Iran about its nuclear program again. Yeah, that's showing support alright.
And you know what? If I were an Iranian student demonstrating against my government, about the LAST thing I would want would be a public endorsement by the president of the United States. Why? Because 1) the Iranian dissidents want to be perceived as patriots, not as tools or dupes of the CIA seeking to overthrow a regime the US doesn't like, as that would provide the Iranian government with the perfect excuse to cut them down, and 2) they hate the US for all the misery that was inflicted on the population of Iran by the Shah, so any approval from Bush & Co would just rub MORE salt in their wounds. Can you at least grasp these basic facts of life? Good.
Wait, did I say salt? Make that acetic acid.
[ January 14, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Cartman ]
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posted
Cartman, not all of Iran hates the US (or the "west" for that matter). Mainly it's the fundamentalists that have the country in a stranglehold. And, of course, being "evil".
The current problem in Iran is this idiotic "Guardian Council".
quote: Iran's parliament - the Majlis - is dominated by the reformists who have won all major national elections since 1997.
But it is the Guardian Council, a highly conservative body, that has the power to decide who can and cannot stand for public office - a power parliament has tried and failed to end.
So their Parliment has failed to disolve the council that's causing the current trouble? I'm searching, but I cant find out why they cant vote to get rid of them -unless the majority of Parliment is not nearly as "moderate" as they claim.
That's not to say that the selfsame Parliment is not responsible for Iran's WMD development and that none of them are sympathetic to terrorist causes or anything.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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"So the US stops Britain from intervening to protect British interests in Egypt/the Suez, then goes and intervenes for the British, to protect British interests, in Iran?"
No, the other way around. The Iran coup was in 1953. The Suez War was in 1956.
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Cartman
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One more thing, Rob. If you're going to berate ME for tossing around expletives like "asshole", don't make the mistake of peppering your own posts with them as well.
Next time, just keep your mouth shut, eh? For your sake and for ours.
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Cartman
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The current problem in Iran is this idiotic "Guardian Council". So their Parliment has failed to disolve the council that's causing the current trouble? I'm searching, but I cant find out why they cant vote to get rid of them -unless the majority of Parliment is not nearly as "moderate" as they claim.
As I understand it, Iran's parliament is more or less stifled by the clerical establishment (which is itself headed by the Supreme Leader who can veto anything and also controls most organs of oppression, of course), and the religious hierarchs ultimately decide which laws are passed and which aren't.
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
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The "Supreme Leader"? Lousy Iranian Cylons.....
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:As I understand it, Iran's parliament is more or less stifled by the clerical establishment (which is itself headed by the Supreme Leader who can veto anything and also controls most organs of oppression, of course), and the religious hierarchs ultimately decide which laws are passed and which aren't.
So Iran is really Microsoft...
-------------------- I am the Anti-Abaddon. I build models at a scale of 2500/1
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Hey: a really good Frontline is on just now dealing with the hunt for WMD and what really was and was not there. Check it out.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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He also said he didn't think stockpiles of WMDs existed. Wow. He must be another hippie-liberal who wants Bush to fail. And I heard on the news the guy who's replacing him doesn't think they exist, either.
posted
Actually, he was VERY vocal that WMD did exist and even went so far as to give the Bush admin half-ases proof in the form of those aluminium cylenders that "were probvably used to make bio weapons". Much later (and after those cylinders revealed no trace of anything) Kay became frustrated by the Bush administratoin's "giving up looking" for WMD.
That Frontline episode I mentioned has several interviews with Kay and Hans Blix. Blix actually still doesnt rule out Iraq having had WMD during the war: only that there was no evidence for them at the war's start.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
He didint?!? Either he's the world's biggest liar now or he has been for the past two years.
DUring that Frontline episode I mentioned eariler, Kay is very defensive about his beliefs that there were and still are WMBD in Iraq or that Saddam went to great lengths to make the world believe he had them to deter invasion.
For him to say now that he never thought there were WMD is like Cunard saying they always thought the Titanic would sink. It's backpedaling on a grand scale.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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Or maybe the nine months of fruitless searching disillusioned him enough to recant his earlier statements. And he didn't say "I NEVER believed Iraq possessed large stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons", he said "I DON'T believe Iraq possessed large stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons", as in "no longer". Why do you think he quit in the first place?
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