posted
First off: No, I would NOT shoot him in the butt. Criminals, when shot anywhere that doesn't kill them, tend to, due mainly to the fact that they're unscrupulous scum to begin with, sue the pants off the people who shot them, thus rationalizing away any blame they might have taken upon themselves for their actions. I'm talking braincase.
Yes, I will kill you (the generic you, not anyone here specifically) for the bits of paper in my pockets. They're important to me, far more important than your life is. I don't give a damn about you, especially if you're taking something that is rightfully mine and threatening me to boot. Think about that before you try to rob me. Is YOUR life worth it?
Yes, people have robbed folk on the street, started to walk away, and then thought 'hey, I don't need a witness' and turned around and shot them. It happens that way quite a bit.
Plus, by slaying said individual: we save: 1. The cost of incarceration 2. The next 5, or 50, or 5000 or so people he would have robbed, mugged, burgled, raped, murdered, etc.
Most crime isn't a one-time thing. I was just on a jury that convicted a guy of possession of coke, marijuana, paraphenalia, and would have convicted him of intent to deliver (because of the huge amount he had - over 60 grams - if one of us hadn't been an idiot. I found out later that the guy had a rap sheet that was LITERALLY as long as my arm.
------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
posted
"Who said we needed to kill (not murder) them to stop them? Pointing a gun in someone's direction is usually enough."
"First, splitting the hair mighty fine there."
Perhaps, but like I said, the FBI's Uniform Crime Report says it happens that way a couple million times a year in the US. My father and younger brother have both gotten by doing even less than that, just displaying the fact that they had one.
"And second, what if it isn't good enough?"
Then you follow through. NEVER make a threat you won't back up.
------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Bullets tumble when they hit something, or splinter, or mushroom. A shot in the ass can be fatal. A bullet can hit the hip bone and tumble up to the heart. A bullet can splinter and cause internal bleeding. A bullet can mushroom, taking off a leg, leading to bleeding to death.
I have no web site to back me on the below, but ask a cop or a soldier that has been in a firefight.
A person has a great chance of aiming high when in a firefight. A shot in the ass can take off a head or rip out a chest.
Just points to ponder.......
I am trained in weapons from a 9mm pistol to mortars to 120mm, compliments of the U.S. Army. Will I own a weapon, even though I can get a federal CCW? Nope.
U.S. Army Infantry School Graduate 1988
1of2 is right, never bluff, it has gotten people hurt.
If anybody ever gets a chance take the Professional Security Training Network class. As for credits it isn't worth a hill of beans (which I found out after taking the class), but some of the facts are great in it. ------------------ Stupid bastards and religious freaks, so safe in their castle keeps...
[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited October 25, 2000).]
I can't believe you would be willing to take a life over a couple bucks. If you owned a store, and you caught someone shoplifting, would you kill them right there?
Let me tell you a story about something which recently happened in Virginia.
Prince Jones got off his job as a personal trainer at a Bally's in Hyatsville, MD, and began driving home in his Jeep Cherokee with PA tags.
He noticed a car trailing him. He tried turning down a couple of streets, but the other car remained directly behind him. Finally, he pulled into a driveway, flipped off his lights and got out of his car to find out what the hell was going on.
He was confronted by a black man in a leather jacket ... with a gun.
What would you do?
Jones confronted the man, dressed in plainclothes, and was shot 12 times by the other man.
Guess what? He was killed by a POLICE OFFICER.
There was an APB on a Jeep Cherokee similar to the one Jones was driving (although with MD not PA tags). The point is, confronting an armed man might not be the smartest thing to do.
------------------ "[Smith] ran on an agenda that was revolutionary for his time -- a 45 cent minimum wage, limiting the workweek to six days, building a bridge to the 1930's -- and I want to say it's quite a tribute to Al Smith that Governor Bush has adopted the same agenda." - Al Gore
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited October 25, 2000).]
posted
*watches petty yanks squabble over guns* *is thankful he lives in a quiet, safe corner of Canada, where guns are hardly talked about, other than for hunting*
------------------ "He may not be a god, but on this ship, I am!" -Andromeda
Your points are true (and yes, I did know all that), but still, a butt shot has a lot less chance of killing someone than a shot to the chest. 'Course, if it DID kill them, it'd likely be more painful. I'd have to see statistics before I actually chose one of the two.
JK2:
You said to Fo2:
"I can't believe you would be willing to take a life over a couple bucks. If you owned a store, and you caught someone shoplifting, would you kill them right there?"
Well, I doubt that First here would kill someone who was walking away from him, but pulling the gun and cocking it REAL loud (TV cliche, I know) would probably stop him dead in his tracks. And if he tried anything, THEN you could shoot him, because he would be immediately threatening you.
Right, Robbie old boy?
As for your example, that all depends on the details. Specifically, did the man clearly ID himself as a cop? You know, like yelling REAL loud before Jones got out of the car?
Under any circumstances, it's probably a bad idea to play hero like that. If someone has a gun pointed at you, you don't pull your own, which comes from watching too many bad westerns; you find out what the guy wants.
Fab:
I wasn't aware that caring about your right to self-defence was petty...
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
posted
Actually, if a cop shoots an unarmed person twelve times for driving a car that looks like one w/ an APB out on it, that cop needs to be shot twelve times himself...
As for a bullet bouncing off the pelvis and into the heart... Well, it's also possible that the bullet will miss, ricochet around, cut a rope that's hanging a piano from a crane, and cause said keyboard to fall upon the person at whom you're shooting, but it still isn't likely. :-)
And then there's the issue of shooting your assailant in the back as he/she/it is leaving...
"Anyone who has a gun and is willing to point it at you is a threat. Just because he has his back turned doesn't mean he's not going to turn back around and shoot you."
Alrighty, then, 'mega-man... If I ever see you walking down the street and realize you have a gun on you, I'll have to be sure to shoot you. Honestly, you don't strike me as the most stable individual in the world, so I'd be afraid you might turn 'round and shoot me if you thought I was a potential threat, or felt that I was breathing too loudly, or heard the voices in your head saying "Kill zem. Kill zem all..." like Sigmund Freud in that TNG episode. Shooting someone as they threaten you is one thing. But if you take it to the point where you can shoot them after they stop threatening you, pretty soon you'll want to shoot people before they start to threaten you...
------------------ "You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend." -Yasir Arafat on religious wars
posted
"The point is, confronting an armed man might not be the smartest thing to do."
Straightforward, simple, undeniably true.
Even less smart if I'M the armed man, no?
What's not smart for one person is not smart for all persons. It is not smart, to a criminal, to confront an armed person. That's why they so rarely do.
------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
posted
Hey, Omega, you didn't answer my question. Are you willing to kill someone to protect your wallet?
First: Thats you choice. If you think all criminals are scum, who will constantly reoffend, who don't deserve to live, then by all means, kill them if you think they are posing a threat.
But you don't think that that's a little bit of a black & white point of view? And maybe, a society who murders their criminals isn't the healthiest society in the world?
------------------ "If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
"Are you willing to kill someone to protect your wallet?"
Not really. But I do have that right, if he's physically threatening me in the process. And if he's physically threatening someone I care about, he's dead. I'm talking about what I have the RIGHT to do, not what I personally would do.
"And maybe, a society who murders their criminals isn't the healthiest society in the world?"
You still don't get it. If someone poses a threat, IT IS NOT MURDER. It's self defence. Besides, if violent criminals had a high rate of getting shot, there'd be less violent crime.
Tim:
"Alrighty, then, 'mega-man... If I ever see you walking down the street and realize you have a gun on you, I'll have to be sure to shoot you."
You pull a gun on me, then you constitute a threat, and you probably die (assuming I'm carrying a gun). My holding a gun doesn't constitute threatening you. Only if I point it at you, or otherwise indicate that I'm threatening someone. You're starting to grasp at straws.
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
posted
*All following statistics courtesy the FBI Uniform Crime Report, or the Detroit-Chicago Police Record Study*
Liam, the U.S. recidivism rate is upwards of 80%.
That is, 80% of criminals who GET CAUGHT and then serve time, return to their criminal ways or get worse. (and that's just the rate of those who get caught AGAIN.
The repeat-offenders who DON'T get caught again pushes that percentage even higher.
The average criminal commits between 5 and 10 crimes before the first time he's caught. The average murderer or would-be murderer has committed 5-7 felonies before his first murder.
In other words, the chance of the guy in the example used being a 'only one time' offender is VANISHINGLY small.
And if you think my stance towards the criminal's 'rights' (what an oxymoron) is overly harsh? It's merely the equivalent of, as my dad used to say in the car... "you shoulda thought of that before you left."
------------------ "Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
quote:Liam, the U.S. recidivism rate is upwards of 80%.
That is, 80% of criminals who GET CAUGHT and then serve time, return to their criminal ways or get worse. (and that's just the rate of those who get caught AGAIN
Wow, you guys really are safer then we are. Deterrence works!
[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited October 26, 2000).]
quote: If someone poses a threat, IT IS NOT MURDER
Killing someone, self-defence or no, is murder, is it not? You killed them. So what if they were trying to steal your prized Bavarian Cheese Holder, you still killed them. Killing is murder is it not? Intentional killing, anyway.
------------------ "Hockey is a sport for white men. Basketball is a sport for black men. Golf is a sport for white men dressed like black pimps." - Tiger Woods
posted
Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary defines "murder" the noun as the following:
"The crime of unlawfully killing a person esp. with malice aforethought"
Said dictionary defines the verb "murder":
"To kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice"
It ain't murder unless it's illegal, and it's legal to kill someone in self-defence. That's why we don't arrest soldiers when they get home from wars. Get your facts straight.
------------------ Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh? Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns. Pilot: Americans it is. - "due South"
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