Self means one's own interests, welfare, or advantage. So, self-righteous people like to parade their own interests with regards to virtue and morality without regard to others' feelings on those same virtues and moralities. Hence, they need to get that stick out of their ass.

Also, I might mention, you've got just as much in common with those Chinese. They're rather fond of State Executions as well.

Redefining the english word "murder" to mean something completely different from what it currently means does not affect the actual meaning of the word spoken several millenia ago. It simple means that we must find a different word that conveys the same meaning, since the word "murder" in our language has been corrupted to mean something other than intended.

Holy Mary, Mother of God!

WE AGREE!

This is what I've been saying all along, Omega! God was speaking in a different language, and he didn't say "murder", he used a Hebrew word which only "closely" translates to "murder", besides which, God didn't use said-Hebrew word with any intention of having Twentieth (and Twenty-First) century legal definitions used with the "closest" English translation of it. Therefore, when people defend their views towards Self-Defense and the Death-Penalty by saying, "it's not 'thou shalt not kill', it's 'thou shalf not murder'" they don't know what they're talking about.

Er. Wait, so what was the point of your rant above if you were just going to agree with me anyway?

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

But I'll elaborate a bit.

My point is that, since God's command was not to kill a human unjustly, this would not apply to capital punishment.

If God said "thou shalt not murder," when "murder" is defined as Shik listed, and self-defence and capital punishment do not constitute murder under this definition, your attacks on capital punishment and self defence on a scriptural basis are defeated.

God said something that is best translated as, "Thou shalt not murder," due to the listed definition of "murder," and the definition of the Hebrew word in question.

Therefore, your attacks on this basis are defeated.

Better luck next time.

"Also, I might mention, you've got just as much in common with those Chinese. They're rather fond of State Executions as well."

No, they're rather fond of state murder. There's a difference, if you'd bother to actually look at the definition that Shik so kindly posted.

"self-righteous people like to parade their own interests with regards to virtue and morality without regard to others' feelings on those same virtues and moralities."

Oh, yeah, I forgot. Who care's about what's right and wrong? Who cares what hurts people, physically or financially? It's how people FEEL that matters!

Give me a break. If you can't take an attack on your beliefs without getting your precious little feelings hurt, then you need to grow up.

Ahem.

Sorry about that. Please carry on with the odd theological argument that a pretty darned close translation of a word or phrase is good enough to print.

I'm not really going to argue about the murder / kill thing here because I think Omega is correct in saying that the Commandment points to murder's malicious intent. I don't think that self-defense would fall under that, but with the Supreme Court divided the way it is, who knows. It could be split 5-4 on the Turn The Other Cheek clause.

However, does the state derive it's basis for capital punishment from the Bible? I'd have to go with a yes in the beginning and a not any more.

Does the state have the right to execute. I'd give a sparing yes. We give up some rights and immunities to live in a civilization...a community. However, I for one am glad that cold legal reasoning has taken the place of the day after the trial execution. I'm not so sure that righteous indignation has a place anymore in the business of the state putting a person to death.

And yes, I noticed the odd mixing of the two threads tue to the broadsides being pumped in to various fleets of posters from thread to thread.

------------------
Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Now, with Shik's definition, the only definition which would apply would be #1, because the other definition (inhumane and barberous) is up for interpretation. I find the Death Penalty to be both inhumane and barberous, therefore, it's murder. The legal definition is not valid because you're never going to convince me that God used a Hebrew word 3,000 years ago which only closely translates to the English word "murder", therefore, he did NOT say "Thou Shalt Not Murder", so why do you act as if he did? You yourself admitted the above.

Also, why do you think the Catholic church is against the Death Penalty? Just wondering. I don't know, maybe you think the Pope is Satan, but don't you think they've got good reasons for doing such, including understanding what God actually said?

Also, if you are morally against the Death Penalty, why do you support it? Aren't you therfore being hypocritical?

Oh, yeah, I forgot. Who care's about what's right and wrong? Who cares what hurts people, physically or financially? It's how people FEEL that matters!

Frankly, Omega, you sound rather arrogant when you act as if you know what and how I think.

No, you totally misunderestand me. I don't care how people feel, it's when they try and push their views on me when I don't want them (and then refuse to listen to another argument) that pisses me off. And please define right and wrong? For me, driving an automatic transmission Jeep is just WRONG, but I'm not going to go and tell someone who is driving one that they're a fucking idiot for driving that. Premarital sex is completely fine and RIGHT as far as I'm concerned, and if some a-hole tries to tell me that I'm WRONG in that regard, I'll ignore 'em. Got it?

Give me a break. If you can't take an attack on your beliefs without getting your precious little feelings hurt, then you need to grow up.

LOL! Omega, the day anything someone types on this BBoard hurts my feeling, well, that'll be a first! I really don't give a flying fuck what you or anyone else says about me on the BBoard, although, I think you do. I think it was your feelings hurt, which is why you keep crying about how the Chinese "murder" people and we Americans only "kill" them.

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

The first is God. God capitalized is a person, normally used as a reference to the Christian deity. a lower cased god is generalized as any deity, just as Sun is the center of our particular solar system while sun is any star in the universe. The capitalizing of a word to specify person from thing is common, like "I believe Mother is making us some cookies" vs. "Go ask your mother."
I think that one other explanation is that in the Christian culture, God is one god. There shall be no other god before Him (another capatilization refering to God only).

Another is YHWH. This is unpronouncable (much like Mr. Spock's true last name) It is commonly pronounced Yahweh, but that is not a proper pronounciation, and normally trying to address someone and pronounce their name incorrectly is either rude or ignorant (Mr. Hay-mond please report to the front desk. Mr. Boosh is going to be president, etc.) Besides, how do we know it's pronounced Yahweh. It might be pronounced Ihw (or "eww". Y is a short i, and a silent h. ihw.).

I'm going to hell for that bit, and your all coming with me. And don't try to get out of it, "we didn't laugh at it Jesus, please?" "Shut up and get on the bus with Hammond and Scorcese you're going right to hell!"

ABBA means father. Many people use this to refer to God as a father-figure. However, Abba can be used to refer to your father.

Allah is the Islam word for God, and they worship the same god as Christians. Does that mean Christians should call God Allah?

LORD in all caps (normally small caps) is termed for God and Jesus Christ. lord or Lord in some lower case means any other lord (feudal system and all). As with God, this is a general term that is changed to mean a specific person.

Jehovah, or Iehova is another word that means God, normally used for the Christian God. It is not an english word, therefore not normally used in the English version of the Bible.

There are others, but this is all I can think of right now.

As for Jesus Christ, he had many names himself:

The afforementioned LORD. Same explanation

Christos means "the annointed", just to clarify.

Emmanuel means "God with us". A proper term for Christ, but not used to refer to Jesus, except in his early days (birth).

Messiah (There's a mess alright, but no Messiah!) means any expected savior or liberator of a people, country, etc. Christ was definitely an expected savior of the Jews, so I think he deserves that title.

So, if all names fit, does that mean we have to start calling God: GodAllahYHWHJehovahAbbaLORDetc. and Jesus: JesusMessiahLORDEmmanuelChristChristosetc.?

Oh yes, and one more thing. There is a politically correct bible out that refers to God as the Mother-Father. What do you think of that?
------------------
I looked at my son, and said, "My god, he's hung like a bear."
"That's the umbillical cord, Mr. Williams."

-Robin Williams, "A Night at the Met" 1986

This is relevant to the discussion... how?

This was ancient Israelite law, and is not relevant to current law. So... what's your point?

"Now, with Shik's definition, the only definition which would apply would be #1, because the other definition (inhumane and barberous) is up for interpretation."

If definition #1 is the only one that can apply, then why do you...

"find the Death Penalty to be both inhumane and barberous, therefore, it's murder."

That's part of definition four, and therefore, at least by your terms, does not apply to God's command.

You're contradicting yourself.

"The legal definition is not valid because you're never going to convince me that God used a Hebrew word 3,000 years ago which only closely translates to the English word "murder""

This does not follow. While I agree that definition four is the appropriate definition to use in this circumstance, it DOES fit the definition of "murder." Therefore, God said a Hebrew word that closely translates to "murder," because the two words have similar definitions.

"Also, why do you think the Catholic church is against the Death Penalty?"

The Catholic Church is screwed up on a lot of things. Why don't you ask them? I'm not Catholic.

"don't you think they've got good reasons for doing such, including understanding what God actually said?"

Yeah, of course I think so. Just like they've got good reason for worshiping Mary. Or a good reason for the existance of the pope. Or for half their other dogma.

None of it has any scriptural basis.

"Also, if you are morally against the Death Penalty, why do you support it? Aren't you therfore being hypocritical?"

No, to be hypocritical is to say one thing and act another way. I fully explain my beliefs on the issue, and act exactly the way I say I will. Therefore, I can not be acting hypocritically.

Again, would you prefer that I try to have my religious beliefs legislated?

"I don't care how people feel, it's when they try and push their views on me when I don't want them that pisses me off."

Oh, so in other words, you want to express your views, without hearing any opposing views? Then what the heck are you doing HERE? This forum is here for DEBATE, not single-post manefestos.

Again, if you can't take an attack on your views, you need to grow up.

"Premarital sex is completely fine and RIGHT as far as I'm concerned, and if some a-hole tries to tell me that I'm WRONG in that regard, I'll ignore 'em."

That's your problem, but that doesn't mean people have to stop telling you. Besides, why are you saying this? We all already KNOW that you ignore everything anyone tells you that you disagree with, regargless of strength of argument.

"I think it was your feelings hurt, which is why you keep crying about how the Chinese "murder" people and we Americans only "kill" them."

Jeff, please believe me when I say that the only emotions I experience when reading your posts are pity at your incredible ignorance, and dispair that anyone can be so.

Do you automatically equate "kill" with "murder," or something? I'd love for you to point out a time that the current US government has ordered the outright murder of someone.

Oh, wait. I just thought of something. There WAS an instance where the above happened. Bill Clinton blew up an asprin factory in Sudan, killing several innocent people, didn't he? Would this not make Bill Clinton a *gasp* murderer? Of course, he SHOULD have been removed from office, but that was prevented. Who stopped that, again? Oh, yes, it's that party you support (for whatever unfathomable reason).

SB:

Mother-father? Oh, now that's just wonderful. Now we have translators that place political correctness over accuracy. There IS a gender case in most languages, is there not?

And I was under the impression that Messiah was Hebrew for "annointed one," and that that's where we picked up the word "Christ" when it became a greek thang, 'cause it was the exact translation.

------------------
I looked at my son, and said, "My god, he's hung like a bear."
"That's the umbillical cord, Mr. Williams."

::sigh::

Yeah, you're a standup Christian there. If you'd been constructive about why the Catholic Church is against the DP and why they shouldn't be, that would be a different story. All you did was call them names.

And what is your thing with Bill Clinton? You know, his impeachment didn't find him guilty -- you seem kind of confused about that. Due process of law and all. It's really fascinating, you should take a government or civics class someday.

This is a very interesting argument, I must admit. These are my views:

God doesn't like the Death Penalty. It's not like you're shooting the guy in the act of committing a crime, but rather, you're locking him up and then killing him. There's a difference between self-defense and the DP, and while I can see Him at least understanding the taking of a life during SD, I don't think He cares much for the people who support the DP and do so in His name.

I find it incredible sexist that people assume God to be male. Or female. But, hey, guys, if you get off on thinking God's got a penis too, believe whatEVER you want.

Actually, it's very pronounceable, depending on whether the h's are glottal fricatives or velar fricatives or who knows what else...as luck would have it, y and w are approximants, meaning they're vowels masquerading as consonants. Looks like Yahweh was playing some tricks with Hebrew.

------------------
I looked at my son, and said, "My god, he's hung like a bear."
"That's the umbillical cord, Mr. Williams."

As for how a question on why we call God "God" instead of Yahweh, Jehovah, or something else turns into a discussion about the death penalty is beyond me, and I cannot take a side on that discussion.

------------------
I looked at my son, and said, "My god, he's hung like a bear."
"That's the umbillical cord, Mr. Williams."

-Robin Williams, "A Night at the Met" 1986

"Oooooh, they worship Him differently! Ooooooh, they're so evil! They must all burn in Hell if they don't worship EXACTLY as I worship!"

I said nothing of the kind. I simply stated that many Catholic beliefs and practices have no scriptural basis. I made no comment whatsoever on whether that affects their eternal salvation.

Touchy.

Frank:

Isn't it true that in Hebrew, there were no written vowels except "O?" Just curious. I seem to recall hearing that somewhere or other.

------------------
"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson

That is all.

If the Arabs and the Jews believe in the same deity, then why do they have religious wars??

How meny different languages was the Bible written in, Hebrew and Greek I remember, but were there others?

It still seems odd the God/Allah/YHWH would gives Moses the Big Ten, then give them the ok to break one the next day.
Monday: Thou Shalt Not KILL
Tuesday: Go slaughter the Palastinians......
This would be hypocritical.

Someone refresh my memory, doesn't the Bible, as translated, say nothing about pre-maritial sex, only that all people should be like Him, and remain virgins? Of course, if everyone did that the world would be human free in about 80 to 100 years....

------------------
"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"