Omega made the statement that Bush shouldn't apologize because, for among other things, the morale of the military is likely to suffer. It is my opinion that that should not even be a consideration in negotiations.

The military is a dangerous job. Even if one joins the ARmy to get GI college loans, there is a chance of going to a foreign country, or flying by one, in the line of duty and not coming back.

Clearly the military personnel currently held in China are alive and apparently well. The American government should do the utmost to make sure that remains the case and that they return home safely.

However, overall military morale should not even an issue here.

Oh, and regarding the plane and bombing it all to crud with stealth bombers while sitting in China, that is quite the overt act of aggression. Considering that the personnel had time to carry out whatever destruction of sensitive data and equipment that the Defense Department had planned for such events, that is a very bad idea.

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The negotiations have failed. Shoot him!
~ C. Montgomery Burns

But the sight of two F-22's flying over Taiwan, playing "Gimme some lovin'" from loudspeakers, that'd be a sight!

IMHO, the US already looks bad just by sending a spy plane down their coast.

Well, you're opinion doesn't really matter, does it? NO ONE has brought up this objection on our side of the pond, except perhaps the rare ultra-left loony like you. We might look bad spying on an ALLY, but that ain't China. You apparently don't have much of a memory, Jeff. Remember all those nuclear secrets they stole/bought not too long ago? If they can do that blatant illegality without suffering any consequences AT ALL, we can do this without looking bad, don't you think? They started it.

Jay:

Oh, and regarding the plane and bombing it all to crud with stealth bombers while sitting in China, that is quite the overt act of aggression.

Legally, the plane is our soverign territory. We could do whatever we wanted to it. 'Course, we'd have to be in violation of Chinese airspace to do it.

Nimmie:

Here, have ten million for the downed plane, it's the least we can do.

But that would be like saying, "Yeah, we didn't do anything, and in fact, you damaged OUR plane, but instead of making you pay the consequences for your actions, we'll buy you a new Russian fighter instead." STUPID.

Politeness is translated as weakness in some cultures, and as JR said, you don't negotiate with terrorists.

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Well, you're opinion doesn't really matter, does it?

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Well, in that case Omega, I guess neither does yours, does it now? As far as I can tell, your opinion is that this incident is worth the loss of millions of lives on either side, because, the US NEVER apologizes! What complete fucking hogwash and dis-regard for human life.

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NO ONE has brought up this objection on our side of the pond, except perhaps the rare ultra-left loony like you.

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I know, I know, I have that rare ability to see things from the other side's perspective. Besides, Omega-san, please tell me how calling me a "rare ultra-left loony" isn't degrading this conversation that way JeffR said was a bad way, you ultra-right hipocrite?

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We might look bad spying on an ALLY, but that ain't China.

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You make more friends with honey than molasses, isn't that the saying? Seems to me sending spy-flights down their coast isn't going to make them WANT to be an ally with us. You know, the whole thing here should be to AVOID a war. Not so, Omega. He wants us to go to war with China.

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You apparently don't have much of a memory, Jeff. Remember all those nuclear secrets they stole/bought not too long ago?

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Los Alamos? While that guy may have looked Chinese, he was a US citizen.

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If they can do that blatant illegality without suffering any consequences AT ALL, we can do this without looking bad, don't you think?

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Well we've already been doing it, sending spy planes down their coast. It's all variations of the same game, but two wrongs don't a right make.

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They started it.

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So big-boy Omega wants the US to go to war and FINISH it! Because he likes Dolph Lundgren!

I realize that war and combat is exciting to young boys. This is why young boys don't get elected to office, because adults realize that war is a (let me make sure you understand this) VERY BAD THING not to be engaged in lightly. And certainly not over something this trivial.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

As for China, they wouldn't be interested in taking over the world, I believe they just want to have their own country for themselves.

USA otoh already has, through burgers, movies with explosions & asskicking presidents, the dating system, cars and whathaveyou and whatnot.

I'm not saying that all of it is bad, just that you guys have been busy.

Now, I don't want this thread to turn around, those things were just part of my post. Carry on...

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

1. A US radar/surveillance aircraft patrolling 'near' China's borders (in an area which I believe is the subject of much dispute of ownership between China, Vietnam, who knows who else. . .) suffered a mid-air collision with a Chinese fighter.

2. The pilot of said fighter might or might not have been a hotdogger, or even ordered to ram it. That is, either reckless, or a deliberate Kamikaze, because those slanty-eyed yellow fellows tried it before, and they're all the same "really," aren't they?

3. The spyplane (or whatever it was, I don't really care, I'm just not gonna type "surveillance aircraft" every time) could conceivably have swerved into the fighter, but there's no way this could have happened because the pilot was American while the fighter pilot was Chinese.

4. We should take the military option, regardless of the consequences. And thank God it's Dubya who's President, because instinctively we know (since he's Republican) he'll get it right, whereas the previous incumbent (who was a Democrat) would have got it wrong.

5. The US Military should set foreign policy, because if we don't let them they'll sulk.

6. Those wily Orientals have set all this up to make a political point.

7. Tom Clancy has a lot to answer for.

8. Anyone who doesn't agree with Omega or JeffR is a loony lefty.

I think that covers everything. Now, listen. I have my misgivings about China. And I know sooner or later the US will probably go to war with them. I'd prefer later because the more things change with time the more avoidable it might become. And hopefully, since it'll largely be over control of the Pacific, the rest of us can stay well out of it (we're members of NATO, not NPTO).

Regardless of the nature or overtness of that surveillance, the US plane was conducting surveillance of another country. This has gone on for years. China has known they do it for years. They've probably intercepted planes before. Unfortunately this time there was an accident. Yes, an accident. You couldn't set this up.

And as for the violated-airspace thing, reality check, guys: EVERYONE has their own views of where territorial airspace boundaries start, especially given the range of modern weapons and compass-reading errors (don't know what Chinese GPS tech is like).

So now 24 people are being held in reasonable comfort - for China. The Chinese government have exploited this situation, much as any other government would. Why didn't the US plane head out to sea and ditch, I wonder? If they really had anything to hide that's what they should have done.

So, there. I tried to come up with some sort of conclusion but in the end, as with all the times I come to the Flameboard, I end up not caring! I don't like the way everything here has to become so fucking partisan.

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"It strikes me that there are enough episodes of the Simpsons that people could speak entirely in Simpsonese, using references from the show to explain or describe an endless series of situations. Nelson and Apu . . . at Tinagra.

But now I�ve brought Star Trek into it again, haven�t I. Sorry."

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Why didn't the US plane head out to sea and ditch, I wonder? If they really had anything to hide that's what they should have done.

There is a true point to all this, if there was sensitive information on board, the US would probably (or should) have disposed of it before it fell into the wrong hands. One conclusion (though it is not the only one) is that there IS no sensitive information on board.

We've heard that the Chinese are interested in this intelligence bonanza that lies within that craft. What makes this more interesting is that this piece of American property is on Chinese soil.

Why didn't the Americans ditch the plane? Who knows. What's in it that the Americans don't want the Chinese to see, who knows.

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Then there's the adults that stop growing at the age of 13, get raised in a racist family, get twisted in a corrupt military-service, and then they run for office in Yugoslavia.

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Please Nimrod, don't get me started on that, the actions of the US in that event is what makes me dislike them so much right now, had they kept out of it, my oppinion of the US wouldn't be nearly as low as it is now.
I was born in Macedonia, and grew up there, that's right down south from Yugoslavia, if anyone wants to start with me on anything from there, I will not stop 'till he/she is dead, and I am not joking. I usually let people have their way in these debates, because for the most part it doesn't concern me, but this is THE thing, I beg of everyone never to bring it up again.

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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"

That should be Omega's theme song. So much for "ooo, I'm a Christian and I love everybody."

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"There comes a time when the mind takes on a higher plane of knowledge but can never prove how it got there. All great discoveries have involved such a leap."
--Albert Einstein, on intuition.