posted
I do have one particular bone to pick here Blue E., and that would be the "privacy" of radio or electronic communication of anyone including a country.
Please don't think that the Chinese are not fully aware that the United States and other intelligence gathering communities are listening in on open air communication. Afterall, radio waves being what radio waves are, they can not be considered private property and therefor privileged.
Which leads me to conclude that the United States is being what amounts to a nosey neighbor. Now while you might not like your neighbor looking in your windows, there is no way you can prevent such an action other than closing the blinds or growing a tree.
Be sure that the Chinese have done the electronic equivalent of that with encryption devices for sensitive material.
This is prime example of Bismarckian "political realism" with a Chinese pilot and several American service people used as pawns to whatever national interest is at stake as viewed from either side. The Chinese view this situation as a opportunity to bargin with the United States from a position of power...having the American service personnel. It seems to me that the Chinese love to bargin from a position of power be that position percieved or real.
And I imagine along those lines that there is a good deal of talk about Taiwan going on even as we quibble.
------------------ The negotiations have failed. Shoot him! ~ C. Montgomery Burns
posted
I am a spy plane. Shiny, too. What then? What then indeed.
"Everyone who is not American has a role for America. Mostly they are people who have no role for themselves. Mostly they're jerking off."
------------------ "Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."
-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.
posted
"they only did the same thing to the Russian at least a dozen time."
The difference was the Russian pilots WANTED to leave Russia and not go back.
I'm not sure about a dozen times either..I know of the one instance where the pilot defected to Japan, we stripped the MIG down, rebuilt it, and returned it. The other MIG aircraft that we obtained were purchased by former Warsaw Pact nations after the fall of the Soviet Union.
EP-3 airplane has electronic equipments that has the ability to monitor communication traffics inside Chinese territory. Any leaders with the right minds will veiw this as an violation towards his country and can be treated as an act of aggression
Blue, China signed treaties saying that this WAS, in fact, acceptable. You can do whatever the heck you want in international airspace (minus some environmental stuff). If they want to go back on their word on a United Nations convention, then they're gonna be in a world of trouble, because NO ONE will trust them after that.
Some of you guys think that going to, and winning a war is as easy as cooking an egg.
Depending on the situation and the scope of the war, it can be. I doubt it would be here, but it wouldn't be that bad. We're not talking about trying to take Beijing, here.
Don't even talk about military analysis or stratigies until you have at least the rank equvalent to a Colonel.
*L*
Well, Daryus, looks like you're gonna have to shut down that website of yours...
Chinese at this moment are analysising the sensitive equipments on broad the aircraft! That's the real intention here. That is why the American are really pissed off, but what can they do, they only did the same thing to the Russian at least a dozen time.
True, but when we did it, it was not in violation of treaty. This is.
As for my source about the pilot asking permission to shoot down the plane, there was a WND article yesterday. Unfortunately, it's been supplanted by more recent news stories, and their archives are set up horribly. I'll try and find it...
------------------ "Omega is right." -Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
I feel like a tool quoting a Tom Clancy novel, but a guy I knew who was a "upper mid-level" Secret Service liaison to CIA (& a damn fine wreck diver, too) basically said the same thing to me.
From "Red Storm Rising:"
"He called himself a spy," Toland objected. "You don't say that. You call yourself an 'officer.' An 'agent' is a foreigner who works for you, and a 'spy' is a bad guy. They use the same terms we do."
------------------ "For people with resources, the right events happen. They may look like coincidences, but they arise out of necessity." --T�rk Hviid
posted
International Law recognizes a limit to airspace of 4 miles out to sea.
The U.S. and Chinese airplanes were 68 miles out to sea when the incident occurred.
Admittedly, China claims airspace out to 200 miles, but those claims are not recognized by any other nation or international body and never have been, and are considered Chinese saber-rattling. It is the equivalent of claiming you own all the road that leads to your driveway for a half-mile in each direction. Nonsense.
According to the incident reports, The Chinese plane dipped under the American plane, and came up directly in front of its nose, striking the nose of the plane with its tail, damaging the tail, which caused the crash. This is the equivalent of someone who suddenly cuts in front of your car and them slams on his brakes. (which is usually a prelude to insurance fraud). A big lumbering prop-driven plane would have an exceedingly difficult time avoiding such a blow, whereas the highly maneuverable fighter could have avoided such a thing if he'd not been hot-dogging it.
China wants an apology for the crash and the loss of the pilot, even though its clear that the pilot was lost as a result of his own arrogance. They don't want an apology for the "snooping," bcause it might set a precedent when we pick up some of the 'fishing trawlers' that are the Chinese methods of spying on US.
I'm sick of all these whiners saying we should apologize for snooping on the Chinese. Fuck them. We've been snooping in on them for decades, and they've been spying on us for just as long. (Except that they no longer have the silent assistance of the administration in office)
------------------ The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
So ... those who don't want to give an apology apparently feel it's okay to keep the flight crew away from their families for this length of time.
I, on the other hand, would just like to issue an apology so those crew members can be reunited with their families.
For all the grand talk of war, and kicking ass, shouldn't the goal be to reunite the crew with their families? Quit yer' fuckin' bitchin' and apologize so those people can go home.
Oh, right, I forget -- a war would be so much preferable.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
posted
There are probably many people who would be sad if all the glorious toys we've built during all these years never would come to use, like new bombs, new tanks, new planes and ships. Some harmless battles down in who-knows-where would boost the morale! It would be a nice shakedown on the boring and inexperienced armies of today.
posted
Um, Canada, y'know, Canada, that big evil empire to the north of you that routinely and blatantly disregards international law, claims 200 miles of sea and air off the coast.
And horror of all horrors, the US recognizes it. Even though this recognition cuts down on the amount of sea that can be fished by boats out of Washington State and New England. Even though if Canada only claimed 4 miles, there would be no "salmon war" and economic benefits for America's economy.
So, why the double standard?
------------------ "I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely." -Omega, April 6
posted
Any boundry on naval and arial soverignty would likely be derrived from the UN convention on the topic. It simply doesn't allow for costal regions that big. See, the difference is that China ratified that convention, whereas we didn't. Don't know about Canada, but since the US never ratified it, we can recognize or not recognize whatever we darned well please. CHINA, OTOH, would be in violation of treaty by claiming that distance. Canada might not, depending on ratification.
------------------ "Omega is right." -Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
posted
You know, I just heard something interesting on CNN.
In China, an apology is akin to an "excuse me", or "sorry 'bout that!"
In the US, an apology is admitting responsibility and perhaps legal culpability for something.
Seems to me, that if this is the case, like the big issue here is that the Chinese are saying what they want and we're interpreting what we would demand if our positions were reversed.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
posted
"Seems to me, that if this is the case, like the big issue here is that the Chinese are saying what they want and we're interpreting what we would demand if our positions were reversed."
*rolls eyes* I coulda told you that.
------------------ "There comes a time when the mind takes on a higher plane of knowledge but can never prove how it got there. All great discoveries have involved such a leap." --Albert Einstein, on intuition.
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