quote:Since O'brien's rank is so screwed up anyway, why not just allow that the hollow pip does indicate a CWO and that it was just another error to give that pin to him?
Or since the Encyclopedia rank chart is so srewed up anyway (no Lt. JG rank for TOS, incorrect movie-era pins, chevrons = Chief of Operations), why not just allow that the hollow pip does indicate a CPO and that it was just another error of the Encyclopedia?
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
Two reasons: (A) As seen on DS9, there's a separate set of unique insignia for NCOs. (B) Warrant officers are a part of Navies today and it would make sense if they were also part of Starfleet's system.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Two reasons: (A) As seen on DS9, there's a separate set of unique insignia for NCOs. (B) Warrant officers are a part of Navies today and it would make sense if they were also part of Starfleet's system.
-MMoM
(A) They could have changed them, seeing as we never saw enlisted chevron-type insignia before DS9. (B) The Royal Navy doesn't really have Warrant Officers (they have a rank called that, but its actually just the highest enlisted rank). Starfleet seems to have copied the RN in the commodore thing (not calling it a RAdm (lower half)), so maybe they copied the simple officer/enlisted system as well.
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
quote:As seen on DS9, there's a separate set of unique insignia for NCOs.
And how do you know that the chevron pin wasn't just a replacement for the hollow pip?
quote:Warrant officers are a part of Navies today and it would make sense if they were also part of Starfleet's system.
But we don't have to assume that. Bob Fletcher for example didn't want any warrant ranks during the movie era.
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
O'Brien was called "Lieutenant" in "Where Silence Has Lease" but since that episode was so full of continuity holes as it were im sure we can overlook that error.
-------------------- Hey, it only took 13 years for me to figure out my password...
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
wow!
damndest thing! i just noticed that we were all mistaken and O'Brien had the correct insignia all along, a CPO box with chevrons
posted
Well, I'll be damned...I guess my screen was dirty, afterall, (as well as my ears) with that whole Lieutenant-pipped-O'Brien-thing, thanks for clearing that up for us Captain!
-------------------- Hey, it only took 13 years for me to figure out my password...
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
posted
Personally, I've never looked upon the "Lieutenant" thing in "Where Silence has Lease" as a scripting mistake. Personally, I think they were just highlighting how easily someone could be confused by having a CPO with two pips. Since Riker is a bit of a daft monkey, it's perfectly understandable that he'd make such a mistake. Especially since he'd already proved earlier in the episode that he couldn't read.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Two reasons: (A) As seen on DS9, there's a separate set of unique insignia for NCOs. (B) Warrant officers are a part of Navies today and it would make sense if they were also part of Starfleet's system.
-MMoM
(A) They could have changed them, seeing as we never saw enlisted chevron-type insignia before DS9. (B) The Royal Navy doesn't really have Warrant Officers (they have a rank called that, but its actually just the highest enlisted rank). Starfleet seems to have copied the RN in the commodore thing (not calling it a RAdm (lower half)), so maybe they copied the simple officer/enlisted system as well.
Actually, Commodore was a US Navy rank, but the commodore community objected to not being an 'admiral', even though they had a star, unlike the army, where all flag ranks are galled 'general', so the 2 star Rear Admiral name was altered to "upper half", and one-stars were rename RADM lower-half. Now 'commodore' refers to an O-6 (Captain) in a flag billet, like command of an Amphibious group. TOS used the commodore rank, because it was extant in the real navy at the time, TNG did not, since it no longer existed. I remember seeing a backstage letter about it in an article in the Trek magazine.
Personally, I choose to assume O'Brien was a Chief Petty Officer (E-7) throughout TNG, and was promoted to Senior Chief Petty Officer (E-8) on DS9. Everything else was just script/costume errors.
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
Yes, but Star Trek was set in the 2200s. The fact that the US Navy had Commodores in the 1960s is pretty irrelevant. By the time of Kirk, US Navy Commodores will have been gone for a very long time (and I see very little chance of them coming back, seeing as that would involve RAdms (lower half) becoming Commodores, and they wouldn't want that, would they?), whereas RN Commodores will probably be around for a long time.
We know that Commodores exist (at least in TOS), and we know the Officer ranks (Ens, LtJG, Lt, LtCmdr, Cmdr, Cpt). However, we have hardly any evidence concerning enlisted ranks. We have Chief O'Brien, a CPO from the Valiant, and Worf's stepdad who was a CPO. I believe, in the Navy, a Master/Senior CPO is addressed as "Senior Chief" or "Master Chief", at least by those inferior in rank. O'Brien (or anyone else) is never called this. So we don't know they exist. There dont appear to be any Warrant Officers (in the American sense), so I'll assume they don't exist.
Here is a theory:
The Enlisted Ranks are: Crewman 3rd Class Crewman 2nd Class Crewman 1st Class Petty Officer Chief Petty Officer Warrant Officer (This is basically the RN system)
In early TNG: PO has single solid pip, CPO has 1 solid 1 black, WO has 2 solid. PO O'Brien serves on BB in Enc at FP PO O'Brien promoted to CPO CPO O'Brien is Transporter Chief CPO O'Brien is referred to as CPO several times.
Then, Starfleet realises (when a certain Cmdr Riker informs them that all the other officers on his ship are laughing at him for mistaking a CPO for a Lt) that this system is the worst insignia system in the history of the universe. So:
Late TNG/early DS9: PO, CPO and WO have 1 black pip, merely to distinguish them from the other ranks, who have no insignia.
Then in DS9 4(?), when the patch is introduced, they decide to give them proper insignia for once. CM3 - Nothing CM2 - 1 Chevron CM1 - 2 Chevrons PO - 3 Chevrons CPO - 3 Chevrons, 1 dot WO - 3 Chevrons, 2 dots
So, when O'Brien was "promoted" to be at DS9, he was made a WO. He is still addressed as Chief, because he is Chief of Operations. He continued to wear a black pip to start with because that was the correct insignia.
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: Yes, but Star Trek was set in the 2200s. The fact that the US Navy had Commodores in the 1960s is pretty irrelevant. By the time of Kirk, US Navy Commodores will have been gone for a very long time (and I see very little chance of them coming back, seeing as that would involve RAdms (lower half) becoming Commodores, and they wouldn't want that, would they?), whereas RN Commodores will probably be around for a long time. Comments?
If you are staying in the reality of the show, yeah they're irrelevant, but realistically, the rank was not abolished til after the show, so it was based on what actually existed in the real world. Since by the time TNG was filmed, the rank no longer existed, they dropped it on the show as well. And I prefer not to mix and match from the RN/USN schemes. Pick one and stick with it, IMO. Trek uses the USN scheme for line officers, ignores warrants most of the time, and when it doesn't ignore enlisted, just makes things up out of thin air, so adding some RN designators would simply make things even more confusing.
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: So, when O'Brien was "promoted" to be at DS9, he was made a WO. He is still addressed as Chief, because he is Chief of Operations. He continued to wear a black pip to start with because that was the correct insignia.
Comments?
Oh, forgot to mention: In one ep, O'Brien mentions how his fater, who was furious at him for running away to enlist, now proudly brags about his son "Senior Chief Technical Specialist Mile's O'Brien". Now, the rate of Technical Specialist doesn't exist today, but it's a plausible new one to create, and Senior Chief is an E-8, not a W-2+
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Darkwing: If you are staying in the reality of the show, yeah they're irrelevant, but realistically, the rank was not abolished til after the show, so it was based on what actually existed in the real world. Since by the time TNG was filmed, the rank no longer existed, they dropped it on the show as well. And I prefer not to mix and match from the RN/USN schemes. Pick one and stick with it, IMO. Trek uses the USN scheme for line officers, ignores warrants most of the time, and when it doesn't ignore enlisted, just makes things up out of thin air, so adding some RN designators would simply make things even more confusing.
Yes, I am staying in the reality of the show. Isn't that what we're meant to do?
I am not trying to figure out what Paramount wanted it to be like. I am using the evidence in the show to come up with a plausible description of how the fictional Star Trek world works.
Regarding the Senior Chief thing, it is perfectly possible that Starfleet's term for Technical Specialists (or any other grade for that matter) who are at my hypothetical WO grade is Senior Chief Technical Specialist (ie they were Technical Specialist at PO, Chief Technical Specialist at CPO, and when they become WOs, they get a "Senior" to show how important they are).
I know its not how the US Navy works, but Starfleet is not the US Navy. Think how much different our naval ranks are to those of 400 years ago. The "Starfleet just must be identical to the US Navy or the universe will collapse" attitude, while it seems to be popular, is neither proven nor realistic.
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: Yes, I am staying in the reality of the show. Isn't that what we're meant to do?
I am not trying to figure out what Paramount wanted it to be like. I am using the evidence in the show to come up with a plausible description of how the fictional Star Trek world works.
Regarding the Senior Chief thing, it is perfectly possible that Starfleet's term for Technical Specialists (or any other grade for that matter) who are at my hypothetical WO grade is Senior Chief Technical Specialist (ie they were Technical Specialist at PO, Chief Technical Specialist at CPO, and when they become WOs, they get a "Senior" to show how important they are).
I know its not how the US Navy works, but Starfleet is not the US Navy. Think how much different our naval ranks are to those of 400 years ago. The "Starfleet just must be identical to the US Navy or the universe will collapse" attitude, while it seems to be popular, is neither proven nor realistic.
OK, you work out a rationale from within the show, whereas I see where the writers/producers were coming from when they did it. IMO, that's a more viable method of arriving at explanations, but there's nothing saying one approach or the other is the only one allowed. Yes, ranks changed a lot in 400 years, and will again, but Trek is not about what will happen then. It's about using then as a backdrop to tell morality tales about today, and therefore uses familiar elements to ease the viewer's transition, juxtaposed with alien elements to slip the moral past our defenses. SF was created with a US Navy structure in order to be more familiar to the viewer, and tampering with the rank structure then reduces the familiarity of the background, jolting suspension of disbelief. The universe wouldn't end if it changed, but it would interfere with telling the story. Therefore, I prefer not to mix systems, because that seems to be the most realistic attitude to me. Realistic in the sense of not rocking the boat over background. Save that for important plot points, like a crewman mutinying contrary to his apparent personality. Change too many details, and plot points get lost. We won't know when somebody's out-of-character, because we'll be used to reality shifting all the time. A show needs a solid foundation for it's backstory and background elements.
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
If you want to look at it like that, its fine with me, but you cannot use the supposed aims of the creators to contradict what I have suggested.
Here is the problem:
O'Brien is a CPO in TNG O'Brien gets "promoted" "Promoted" means increased in rank, not position O'Brien is addressed every single time in DS9 as "Chief" Senior Chiefs are addressed as "Senior Chief" Therefore O'Brien is not a Senior Chief But in the US Navy system Senior CPO is above CPO So they can't be using the US Navy system
As far as I can see, my system doesn't contradict established canon, and provides an explanation (whether its plausible or not is up to you to decide) which fits in everything we've seen or heard on Trek, and does all this while being based on a real life system.
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic
