posted
The only hole in your theory is that he was referred to as Chief Petty Officer when he was wearing 3 chevrons and 2 dots.
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
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O'Brien is promoted to CPO in TNG. Therefore he was a PO before. Now, the US Navy has 3 grades of PO. However, if this were the case in Starfleet, the 2nd grade could (theoretically) have the hollow pip, but this would leave the lowest grade with nothing. I think that if some ranks have insignia and some dont, it would be infinitely more likely for Starfleet to start giving out insignia when CM changes to PO than when PO3 changes to PO2. Therefore, I have put only one level of PO. Secondly, I have not included MCPO for too reasons. (a) I find it impossible to believe that our fantastic Chief of Operations wasn't promoted to this. (b) From the tone of the brag of Miles' father, it seems that Senior Chief is the highest enlisted grade. ("My son went all the way" kind of thing) Perhaps they abolished MCPO (as well as the PO grades), due to the lesser number of enlisted personnel on automated ships compared with modern ships.
To reiterate: PO O'Brien wears 1 solid pip as helm officer. CPO O'Brien wears 1 solid, 1 hollow pip as transporter chief. (CPO O'Brien is mistaken for Lt JG by Cmdr Riker) CPO O'Brien wears 1 hollow pip as Transporter Chief. SCPO O'Brien wears 1 hollow pip as Chief of Operations. SCPO O'Brien wears 3 Chevrons, 2 dots as Chief of Operations.
This means that the correct form of address for a Senior CPO is "Chief", as SCPO O'Brien is called this every single time.
In summary: USN ranks minus MCPO, with the POs merged into 1 and with the form of address of SCPO changed.
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posted
That doesn't work either. Firstly, O'Brien never wore Lt. JG pips. He appeared with one solid pip, two solid pips, and one hollow pip. Secondly, he was referred to as "Chief Petty Officer" when wearing 3 chevrons and 2 dots, not just Chief.
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
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quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: OK - here's an alternative. Inatead of starting from the RN, I will start from the USN. As you can see, it is very similar to the previous one.
Ranks: Crewman 3rd Class Crewman 2nd Class Crewman 1st Class Petty Officer Chief Petty Officer Senior Chief Petty Officer
Perhaps they abolished MCPO (as well as the PO grades), due to the lesser number of enlisted personnel on automated ships compared with modern ships.
Interesting. Also, the USN has been considering simplifying the structure. Seaman PO (maybe Junior PO and Senior PO, maybe just PO) Chief ENS LT CDR CPT ADM I like the shortened officer list, but feel that POs need three grades, as each level has different amounts of seasoning. The only reason for Senior Chiefs and Master Chiefs, though (like multiple ADM grades) was to provide room for promotion. I figure we should replace that with paygrade steps, like GS workers. Trek, of course, assumes that money no longer exists, so I don't know what advancement we could provide them for longer service in lieu of adding ranks. In fact, that's why I figured a race I created for my fiction has several grades of ens/lt/cdr/cpt/adm equivalents - they have Vulcan lifespans, so they go through a lot more ranks during their 50-100 year career. That, and everyone starts as enlisted before becoming officers... But in a human organisation, I'd say our current scheme is too top-heavy and has too many grades, while the new idea being considered may cut too much. I'd run about E-1 to E-6, W-1 to W-3, and O-1 to O-6, maybe even cutting out the warrants entirely.
-------------------- Darkwing If you don't drink the kool-aid, you're a *baaad* person - Rev Jim Jones It is useless for sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while wolves remain of a different opinion - William Ralph Inge Almond kool-aid, anyone? - DW [email protected]
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quote:Originally posted by Spike: That doesn't work either. Firstly, O'Brien never wore Lt. JG pips. He appeared with one solid pip, two solid pips, and one hollow pip. Secondly, he was referred to as "Chief Petty Officer" when wearing 3 chevrons and 2 dots, not just Chief.
OK then. Change the Early TNG ones to: PO: As Ensign CPO: As Lt SCPO: As Cmdr
The SCPO thing relies on Starfleet's reinterpretation of it. They must just consider it a "Senior" CPO, rather than a "Senior Chief". This semantic difference explains why he is addressed as Chief, not Senior Chief, and hence why he may be called a CPO, because he is one. Just like Fleet Admirals are a type of Admiral, and so are "Admirals" and may be called that, even though they rank higher than plain Admirals.
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posted
But the hollow pip was already in use during early TNG.
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
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posted
BTW: Why are you so eager to use the solid pips when they were clearly an error?
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
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posted
Because I don't like errors, so I try to make them into non-errors
If something is clearly a mistake, and there is no way whatsoever to explain it, fine, I can accept that as an error, but if I can I will come up with a reason.
I think that this system is plausible. Whether you think it is or not is up to you, but it works for me. As to why SF would use the same insignia for Officers and Enlisted is anyone's guess, but the organisation that can introduce the dresses seen in very early TNG can do anything IMO. And the reason they changed them is clearly illustrated by Riker's mistake
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[*]Various officers with the Enterprise insignia in TOS Court Martial [/list]
Depending on what source you are using for your information on TOS insigna, there is a fandom theory on this. I believe, correct me someone if I am wrong, fan chronologer James Dixon came up that the Enterprise insigna really was the insigna for members of the Space Fleet, or Star Service. While the various other insigna seen throughout the series symbolized a type of rank or job specification. For example, the rectangular Exeter insigna symbolized a fleet captain (Ron Tracy). The stylized-I in "Doomsday Machine" symbolized Commodore with a ship command, while the starburst in "Court Martial" and "Menagerie" symbolized Commodore with a base command. The odd planet symbol seen in "Balance of Terror" on the doomed outpost officer symbolized planetary duty or some such.
Speaking of the "Menagerie," Mendez's yeomen or secretary can be cleary seen wearing the Enterprise insigna when Kirk enters the office.
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