posted
Man, even if she was stark nekked, I would never watch that.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Er, where'd you get that from? I recall Kirk saying the above line to Decker, but "only ship" is not the same as "only suitable ship". Besides which, sending out a ship with untested weapons and engines does not seem to be the smartest move.
The script makes things a bit more clear, but the key words are "in interception range." The other ships were either not fast enough to catch up with V'Ger while it was still some distance from Earth or not powerful enough to be capable of intercepting it. This is what made the Enterprise "the only ship."
quote:(I also fail to see how 5 minute long sequences of the Enterprise flying over a cloud while a bald woman walks around in a miniskirt tell you much about the "human condition". But that might just be me. You should start your thread, though.)
Like all art, it's somewhat open to interpretation but, as I see it, the vast scale and labyrinthine nature of V'Ger mirror the infinite and layered complexity of the human consciousness. The realization that what we have believed to be an awesomely powerful enemy vessel is in fact a sentient lifeform of colossal proportions--born originally of Mankind's own ingenuity, and now struggling to comprehend its origins--forces us to reexamine our conceptions of intelligence and existence. The contrast between the Enterprise, which seems the pinnacle of Man's achievement at the beginning of the film, and the comparably-boundless Intruder is central to the film's underlying themes. THIS is the reason why so much time is spent visualizing it.
As for the wormhole sequence, I can understand why it would be off-putting to some, but how would you portray the warping of space and time on film?
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Woah. Will you write some deep shit about me when I die?
quote:Possibly to be posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: ...even Jason's typos and mis-spellings were the clever (and intentional) way in which he pointed out the flaws in the human condition. His every post was a well thought-out reply, meant to invoke an almost Aesop-like view of man's flaws...
Seriously- it was more like "then the VFX guys have the ship fly through all this cool shit" than any deep psychological conparison.
At least, that's wht the storyboards I've seen would indicate. No idea what went on down at ILM's studios or what they might have been smoking (of if your narritive only applies to the Special Edition), but it seems aside from the director's "vision" at the time.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
Of course, the fact that the VFX guys didn't realy know what they were supposed to be building up to because the ending hadn't been written might be a contributing factor.
I still find it's more re-watchable than TWOK though, I just go through that thinking "...KHHHHAAAAAAAAAN!"
-------------------- I have plenty of experience in biology. I bought a Tamagotchi in 1998... And... it's still alive.
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posted
It's part of the transcendent journey, physically within V'Ger's vast consciousness. The visuals are intended to stimulate you to some higher order of thinking, of being. Except that everyone had already seen the end of 2001 and frankly thought even that might have been a tad too much (but we all cut Stanley a break because he's British and clever.) Plus everything was so rushed in making the VFX, Bob Wise hadn't had time to pare down all that footage.
quote:Originally posted by MMoM: However, [TWOK] suffers greatly from being formulaic and inelegant as a motion picture. It's a typical Hollywood flick with its chase-'em-down, shoot-'em-up, good-guys-versus-bad-guys scenarios, and appeals ONLY to the audience's emotions and NOT its intellect.
This is precisely my problem with the tack you are taking in your posts. What goes unstated by you here is that's in your estimation. If you don't personally like it, I can't really argue with that. When you say TWOK is a typical Hollywood flick, I can only assume you are placing it in the same bracket as, say, Eraser or maybe Die Hard: 2, and if that is what you are in fact saying, you are wrong.
When you say it appeals "ONLY" to the audience's emotions and not its intellect, well frankly that's really condescending. Certainly I think it's fair to say that TMP is more cerebral than TWOK (and vice-versa for emotionality), but that's a long way from saying it's without intellectual merit. That's just insulting. Did you even read anything I wrote? The grand themes of death, loyalty, sacrifice...? That awkward imagery with the honing and the sharpening and the eroding?
But it's when you start calling it formulaic and inelegent, where I really take issue. Khan-Kirk, David-Joachim, veterans-recruits, paradise-Hell, "How we face death is at least as important as how we face life", creation-destruction, self-absorbtion-self-sacrifice,"The best of times...the worst of times"-- these axes, these words, they aren't in there by accident, they didn't come off some roll of stickers. They are intricately woven into a visually stunning action-adventure story with a huge emotional charge. Pacing alone sets it apart from the pack. This film is amazing, and there's a reason it is my favorite of all time ever. I defy you to point out a "typical Hollywood flick" that could hold a candle or the shoot-'em-up it's patterned after.
Here is the thing. I do respect the film-making in TMP. I don't think it's just a seventies farce and point out McCoy's silly beltbuckles or beard. I like it, on a lot of levels. The tensions between Decker and Kirk is great. The exploration of Spock's character is epic and brilliant. The problems I have with it have to do with structure and characters, with performances. Maybe even with it biting off a bit more than it could chew thematically. But these are only my opinions. And, as has been grotesquely demonstrated above, I'm a bit mad about these things. Which is to say, I don't think you're silly for preferring this film. I think you're silly for so blithely writing off Khan.
posted
Like I said earlier, Star Trek needs more fans who catch the big-picture elements that the makers are trying to convey.
However, Mim is entitled to his opinions, of course, and he has valid points. It is up to each person and each person's tastes to make that final value judgement as to what is liked and what is not liked. Such aesthetic criteria result in one's personal preferences. These are not wrong, unless you think Voyager is the best Trek show and "Threshold" the best episode.
All other opinions are largely okay, provided they are honest.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
posted
Obviously, everything we're saying here is our opinions. I never claimed to be tapping into some great ethereal radio broadcast of indisputable universal truth. This is what I think.
Perhaps things *have* gotten a tad too polarized in this thread. Really though, there are two types of Trek fans: those who think TMP is the best Trek film and those who think TWOK is. This schism, of course, runs deeper and farther back to those who think "The Cage" was a better Trek pilot than "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and those who take an opposing view. I suspect it's really about plot-driven versus character-driven aesthetics. In the former, the chracters only exist to move the story along and reveal aspects of its themes; in the latter, the plot is constructed as a vehicle for the characters.
quote:Originally posted by The Ginger Beacon: Of course, the fact that the VFX guys didn't realy know what they were supposed to be building up to because the ending hadn't been written might be a contributing factor.
This is not really accurate, as the basic framework of the story was laid out as early as the original script (entitled "In Thy Image," intended for the pilot of the scrapped Phase II television series) that the film was built on, though revisions did occur throughout the production stages.
quote:Originally posted by bX: When you say TWOK is a typical Hollywood flick, I can only assume you are placing it in the same bracket as, say, Eraser or maybe Die Hard: 2, and if that is what you are in fact saying, you are wrong.
Oh, I certainly wouldn't go that far. To me, those are not "typical" Hollywood films, but rather "especially bad" ones.
I must admit that I've been thinking in somewhat reactionary terms since this discussion began. Perhaps its fruitfulness as a critical discussion is waning. Nobody is wrong in prefering whatever they choose to, and I did not intend to imply so.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Again though, your personal opinion overrides your objective viwepoint. Die Hard 2 is not, by most stretches of the imagination, a "bad" movie. You could say that you don't care for "man verses bad-guys" type films, but within that genre (and indeed, the action genre in general), the Die Hard films are high quality representations.
(I do accept that there might be people who honestly think that the Die Hards, Terminator 2, Goldfinger are objectively bad, but most people who dislike them do so out of a dislike for the genre, not the film. And that's not the same thing.)
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Er, where'd you get that from? I recall Kirk saying the above line to Decker, but "only ship" is not the same as "only suitable ship". Besides which, sending out a ship with untested weapons and engines does not seem to be the smartest move.
The script makes things a bit more clear, but the key words are "in interception range." The other ships were either not fast enough to catch up with V'Ger while it was still some distance from Earth or not powerful enough to be capable of intercepting it. This is what made the Enterprise "the only ship."
Okay. It's still a stupid plot hole though.
And do you like Encounter at Farpoint?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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posted
That is soooo right. As to there beine "two types of fans", I guess I'm in a minority, in that I think First Contact is by far the best Trek movie.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
I don't get why everyone hates Genesis. Sure, it's stupid, but it's also quite fun. I'd take that over dullness (The Masterpiece Society) or mildly offensive gibberish (The Host).
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Sure, it's stupid, but it's also quite fun.
This argument never holds up for me with Star Trek. TNG was an intelligent show most of the time, and those kinds of "House of Horror" episodes fell sooo far from the best of it. If I want something that's stupid, but fun, I'll watch Aqua Teen Hunger Force.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
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WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
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posted
In truth all Trek films fall short when measured to the film that The Great Bird ripped off for his "Wagontrain to the Stars".
Forbidden Planet.
I think that TMP was good, but not great. It fell short in conveying many of the themes it tried to explore due to some rather wooden acting and the fact that the visuals didn't "grab" like they should have. It was trying to evoke 2001 style storytelling when most people were running around having sword fights with wrapping paper tubes and yelling "Jedi! JEdi!". People were let down by the LACK of action much in the same way that the movie Stargate did. The previews led you to believe there was going to be this great epic battle but those few scenes were minimal and unfulfilling. So while there was good story in both, it failed in being appreciated because it was not the bill of goods that was sold.
The expectation that was built for TWOK was much better. I still remember the trailer "Somewhere...in the darkest reaches of the universe.... a battle is about to be fought. Between "Good" ....and "Evil".....Between a "Hero" .....and a "Madman".... Between the awesome power of the starship Enterprise......and "THE WRATH... OF KHAN". People went into TWOK with an expectation of a fight of epic proportions and that was what they got. But in the process, there was also this richness of character and development that was intertwined with myriad themes of death, life, redemption. And it worked because it was made a PART of the whole that the trailers wetted your appetite for. People went to TWOK HUNGRY for the meat of Hero-Trek, and got along with the meat the delicacies of plot, character and grand themes.
I liked First Contact as well. My only complaint about the plot was this: Why did the Borg have to travel all the way to Earth to go back in time? Why didn't they just do it in their own quadrant and then just make the couple of weeks journey to Earth with NO possibility of interference? And if it HAD to be done AT EARTH...then why only ONE cube? Kinda reminiscent of Ra only having a couple dozen Jaffar with him at Abydos in the Stargate movie. But all in all, it delivered what was promised.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
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quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: In truth all Trek films fall short when measured to the film that The Great Bird ripped off for his "Wagontrain to the Stars".
Forbidden Planet.
Which was itself a through rip off.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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