posted
"I still say Kirk's a total scumbag for leaving Kahn's gang there; and yeah, it's aparant he knew all about the star going nova."
Of the three statements here, one I disagree with, one I think is factually wrong, and one never happened.
Anyway, just why Kirk is giving Khan and his cronies a second chance on Ceti Alpha V isn't really addressed in "Space Seed" that I can remember, beyond that sort of thing being more or less standard practice in the series. But, to get to my disagreement, one could argue that Kirk was doing Khan an unreasonable favor by letting him sneak off to his own private Io. Is there a statute of limitation for war crimes? (That is, assuming you meant Kirk was a "scumbag" for leaving them, and not for failing to bring them to justice, assuming any justice was to be had.)
re factually wrong: Why would you assume Kirk knew that Ceti Alpha VI was going to explode? There's nothing in the "text" to suggest it.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Noooo, I meant that Kirk already knew that the star had gone nova when Terrell tried to explain Kahn's motivations. Mabye it was his Admiral status that got him the info, but it's sure not anyone telling him onscreen why Kahn shows up after forever looking to kill him. Kirk's suprised to see Kahn, but never needs to ask him why he's doing all this revenge shit. Kirk was suprised to see Kahn was alive at all.
So, Kirk knew the disaster had happened prior to Reliant stumbling on Kahn's survivors. It makes him (to me) a scumbag for not trying to rescue them -or even checking to see if anyone had survived!
I dont think Kirk knew about the Star's instbility back when he set Kahn down there- If he did, he would be a total evil fuck. I figure someone ws keeping tabs on the colony of super war-criminals and figured "good riddance", thus never updating the starcharts about the nova (and thus dooming the Regula crew and probably much of Reliant's crew as well- no way the entire crew would have squeezed into those tin shack's Kahn was living in).
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
If something big hits them I guess. Like another planet or Shatners ego.
I think that's the current theory on how the moon came to be. It's called the giant impact hypothesis.
-------------------- I have plenty of experience in biology. I bought a Tamagotchi in 1998... And... it's still alive.
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posted
At what point is it established that Kirk knew about Ceti Alpha VI exploding?
(I always wondered whether Chekov even realises they are in the same solar system as Kahn. He knows that he was dropped off on Ceti Alpha V, not VI, but I can't tell if "Botany Bay...oh no!" is "Shit, I've forgotten Kahn was nearby", or "Hang on, this is the wrong planet!" Not that it matters in the end.)
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
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posted
With ALL the different times their lives were on the line do you really think that an event 15 years ago is really going to have much more than a vague recollection in Kirk's or Checkov's minds? This is the same Checkov that survived the OK Corral gunfight because to him only the girl was REAL! So yeah, Ceti Alpha didn't trigger anything but frigging "Botany Bay" made him leak lubricant in his enviro-suit.
As far as Kirk knowing about the explosion of the neighboring planet, he might not have received the news of that until months or even years afterwards. Seeing as how the Reliant's sensors only picked up "a minor fluctuation on one dynoscanner" it is reasonable to assume that the sensors 14 1/2 years earlier were not near as sophisticated or sensitive that they could read ANY life forms. So Kirk COULD have sent a ship to look or inform Starfleet to have them look (since I don't think he was an Admiral at that time) but having detected nothing he simply assumed that they had all perished.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
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quote:"Fuck, Kahn, I thought you were dead! I was gonna check, but then, you know, stuff happened and there was this V'Ger thing... Man, I am so fuckin' sorry..."
Seriously, not even a hint of remorse or shock that Kahn's people get hosed- including his sexy "Instant Stockholm Syndrome" former history officer.
How the hell does a planet "just blow up" and the Reliant not notice several quadrillion tonnes of debris floating around the system (and you know, that it's suddenly missing a whole planet!!)
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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(That was not a sarcastic comment. It's fun here.)
In light of the sheer volume of responses and discussion that has intervened since I made my last post, this one is probably is going to seem a little scattered. My apologies.
Firstly, one should not make the mistake of thinking that I cannot appreciate or enjoy the drama of TWOK. The movie is exciting and entertaining. It offers some good character development for Kirk. It contains one of the most emotionally-moving scenes yet seen in any Trek.
However, it suffers greatly from being formulaic and inelegant as a motion picture. It's a typical Hollywood flick with its chase-'em-down, shoot-'em-up, good-guys-versus-bad-guys scenarios, and appeals ONLY to the audience's emotions and NOT its intellect.
I, for one, am not particularly interested by so-called "revenge movies." I mean, what's deep and meaningful about revenge? It seems to me that whatever is has already been covered by Melville and other serious authors. I'm sure Nick Meyer et al thought they were being sophisticated and literary in cribbing lines from Melville and Shakespeare but, to me, it just comes off as crass. I am quite familiar with those authors and do not feel that their interjection into the film was as artful as so many do. I sort of expect more depth, complexity, and originality from Star Trek.
I deeply lament the dumbing-down of American film that has occured in the last couple of decades, and the increasing willingness of audiences to refrain from looking critically at motion pictures as pieces of art and to overlook "the details." Thus, part of what irks me about TWOK's persistent deification as the pinnacle of cinematic Trek is the very nonchalance towards those "minor" plot holes I mentioned that so many people exhibit. (By the way, I would be most interested to see anyone claiming that TMP has similar logical flaws present their criticisms; we might want to start a new thread, though.)
That about sums up my general feelings on the subject of TWOK's flaws, aside from the aforementioned issue of the film significantly altering and greatly oversimplifying Khan's character and the dynamic between him and Kirk. Now, on to a few specific things:
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Anyway, just why Kirk is giving Khan and his cronies a second chance on Ceti Alpha V isn't really addressed in "Space Seed" that I can remember, beyond that sort of thing being more or less standard practice in the series.
Kirk did it because he felt it would be "a waste to put them in a reorientation center." It's part of what I was trying to get at earlier--Kirk admired Khan, and vice versa.
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: At what point is it established that Kirk knew about Ceti Alpha VI exploding?
I think Jason's comments are based on the scene where Terrell says to Kirk that Khan blames him for the death of his wife and Kirk replies: "I know what he blames me for." I hadn't really thought of this exchange in that light before, but it's an interesting angle.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Pacing is part of what kills TMP- lots of "people sitting talking in a lounge" scenes really kill any built up tension of Earth's potential destruction.
[...]
TMP also suffers from there not being any villan to be intrested in- V'Ger is like fighting a tidal wave- it's just this incomprehensible force to be dealt with, but you cant get any satisfaction from it's defeat/destruction like you can with Kahn or the klingons.
See, in my opinion, these are precisely the sort of things that make TMP a better piece of science fiction cinema than TWOK. The impact, the payoff, of the film is not in dramatic devices like building tension or in simple emotional reactions like taking satisfaction in the destruction of an enemy, but rather in its probings into the human psyche and the nature of sentient existence. Its main purpose is not mere entertainment, but exploration of those abstract concepts.
quote:Originally posted by Lee: [...] just because TMP was the first film to use the "only ship in range/in the quadrant/etc." excuse doesn't make it any less silly than all the other occasions.
In TMP, the issue of the Enterprise being "the only ship in interception range" was due to the fact that her recent engine and weapon upgrades made her the only vessel with any reasonable chance of meeting and dealing with the V'Ger threat in a timely fashion. There were a number of other ships around, (several of them are mentioned by name in early drafts of the script: the light cruiser Aswan, the Boston, the Paris, and the Delphi) but none of them were powerful or fast enough to be effective.
Anyway, it's not really surprising to me at all that I'm very much in the minority on this issue, but differences of opinion are part of what make us individuals. IDIC, yo.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:I think Jason's comments are based on the scene where Terrell says to Kirk that Khan blames him for the death of his wife and Kirk replies: "I know what he blames me for." I hadn't really thought of this exchange in that light before, but it's an interesting angle.
It's one of the plot holes of the movie- I had always excpected there was a deleted scene somewhere with Kahn expounding on how Kirk screwed him over, but as there's no such scene, I figure Kirk knew about the planet's devestation and wrote Kahn off as a goner.
The possibly damning thing is the lack of any records on the matter- Reliant would have had access to them if they were available... that leads to the possibility that Kirk knew about the destruction of the settlement and that someone covered it up for whatever reason.
Mabye the re-emergence of Kahn was kept classified to prevent would-be followers from seeking Kahn out (and providing him with space travel capibility).
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: In TMP, the issue of the Enterprise being "the only ship in interception range" was due to the fact that her recent engine and weapon upgrades made her the only vessel with any reasonable chance of meeting and dealing with the V'Ger threat in a timely fashion.
Er, where'd you get that from? I recall Kirk saying the above line to Decker, but "only ship" is not the same as "only suitable ship". Besides which, sending out a ship with untested weapons and engines does not seem to be the smartest move.
Whereas, in TWOK, the Enterprise had possibly been flying around for a while before they picked up the distress call. The ship worked fine, the only problem was that it was full of cadets. Them being the only available ship was less of a necessary-but-credability-stretching plot point, as they should have been able to handle most situations fine. The main reason things went wrong there was Kirk making mistakes.
(I also fail to see how 5 minute long sequences of the Enterprise flying over a cloud while a bald woman walks around in a miniskirt tell you much about the "human condition". But that might just be me. You should start your thread, though.)
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:TUC has its fans, it was definitely patterned after the Greatest Star Trek Film Of All Time Evar.
TUC is my second-favorite Trek movie (after TWOK). I think some of the patterning was intentional, especially with Nicholas Meyer as director for both movies.
An early version of the script had the character of Valeris originally being Saavik. While I would have hated Saavik being made into the "villian," this would have really have that much more of an impact and developed an established character even more, instead of introducing yet another Vulcan female officer mentored by Spock.
Plus, this would have made the patterning after TWOK more acceptable, since it would be a sequel of sorts.
Registered: Feb 2004
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Maybe I'm getting this from the TUC novelisation, but I thought the main reason for Valeris' betrayal was that as a Vulcan she had concluded that maintaining the pre-Praxis status quo was the logical course of action. Whereas the other conspirators were either motivated by fear of change or the inability to change (Cartwright, Nanclus, Chang, West) or racism (Burke & Samno were presumably chosen because they were up for the chance to zap a few Klingons) she was motivated not by feelings but by (flawed) logic. Using Saavik in that role would have emphasised that, I think.
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: [QUOTE](I also fail to see how 5 minute long sequences of the Enterprise flying over a cloud while a bald woman walks around in a miniskirt tell you much about the "human condition". But that might just be me. You should start your thread, though.)
The "human condition" part comes in when they are in "wormhole effect" and said bald chick's tits are jiggling in slo-mo.
When I first saw that (as a little kid and on cable) I was mesmerized by her boobies. Possibly I thought her boobies saved the ship. I may still believe that.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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WizArtist II
"How can you have a yellow alert in Spacedock? "
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Sounds like a case of Decker envy to me.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
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Persis Khambatta's best role was in Megaforce.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
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