posted
Well, TECHNICALLY speaking it was the USS Repulse, as that was how the model was known to be marked for the first time when we see that particular bit of stock footage. It's since been seen a zillion times as (among ships) the Intrepid, the Crazy Horze, the Cairo... It's also often seen in combination with the footage of the model labeled as the USS Hood, seen way back in "Encounter at Farpoint".
We'll probably never know how many Excelsiors were at Wolf 359. Assuming the ship that met the Enterprise at New Providence was NOT the USS Roosevelt, we know then that there must have been at least three. I think that the Excelsior we saw was indeed Hanson's personal ship, as I susbscribe to the idea that an Admiral gets to choose a ship, presumably the one that is permanently assigned to whatever starbase the Admiral serves at. TNG establishes that Excelsiors are frequently used to haul Admirals about, so I'm thinking that Excelsior was Hanson's own, and the ship from which he commanded the fleet.
posted
Well, looking at my shiplist it seams that the Intrepid is the only other known Excelsior that could have been at Wolf 359...in fact this could explain what happen to the ship that allowed a whole new Class to be named after it, just a few years later.
posted
That's not a bad idea, destroying the Intrepid at Wolf 359, and then granting the name to an in-development starship class (it's unreasonable to think that they started developing the Intrepid-class after Wolf 359 and launched the prototype in four years!). However, there's also the possibility that they were developing the Intrepid class under that name while the old Excelsior edition was still around, intent on decomissioning the old one before they finished the new one. But then again, who knows what Starfleet smokes at their name selection parties...
I'm intereseted in how you can conclude that the Intrepid could be the ONLY other known Excelsior at Wolf 359. The Repulse could have easily been there too, for example, as she was last mentioned in "Unnatural Selection" when we saw her Captain.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: That's not a bad idea, destroying the Intrepid at Wolf 359, and then granting the name to an in-development starship class (it's unreasonable to think that they started developing the Intrepid-class after Wolf 359 and launched the prototype in four years!). However, there's also the possibility that they were developing the Intrepid class under that name while the old Excelsior edition was still around, intent on decomissioning the old one before they finished the new one. But then again, who knows what Starfleet smokes at their name selection parties...
Its not unheard of. The Promethus and Yeagar Classes both seamed to be in development while a ship of the same name was already running about the place...ok, so the Yeagar is a bad example, but you get the idea.
[/QUOTE]I'm intereseted in how you can conclude that the Intrepid could be the ONLY other known Excelsior at Wolf 359. The Repulse could have easily been there too, for example, as she was last mentioned in "Unnatural Selection" when we saw her Captain. Mark[/QUOTE]
Well lets have a look shall we? I may have jumped the gun a bit....oh wait, I have the Repulse on the conference room chart that appeared in the 6th & 7th seasons, after Wolf 359....and on the MIA/WIA/KIA chart in DS9.
posted
All known (to me anyway) Excelsior Class ships
U.S.S. ENTERPRISE NCC-1701 B Commanded by Captain John Harriman, Third starship to bear the name, Launched in 2293 DECOMISSIONED
U.S.S. EXCELSIOR NCC-2000 Commanded by Captain Styles During her trial runs, First of it's class, Persude a stolen Enterprise from Spacedock in 2285 but sufferd total failure in her main warp computer drive due to sabotage, testbed for failed Transwarp Drive project, Commanded by Captain Hikaru Sulu from 2290, instrimental in the battle at Khitomer in 2293, partisipated in unsuccesful search and rescue mission for the Hera in 2370 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. REPULSE NCC-2544 Commanded by Captain Taggart, Katherine Pulaski's posting until 2365 when she transfered to the Enterprise-D, Assigned to deep space exploration in sector 22358 in 2369 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. ROOSEVELT NCC-2573 Lost at the battle of Wolf 359 in 2367 DESTROYED
U.S.S. OKINAWA NCC-13958 Commanded by then Captain Leyton while Ben Sisko was Executive officer, Fought in the Tzenkethi war OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. BERLIN NCC-14232 Stationed near the Romulan Neutral Zone in 2364, Assigned to patrol the Romulan Neutral Zone in 2369 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. LEXINGTON NCC-14427 Transported medical supplies to Tarkan colony in 2370 DECOMISSIONED
U.S.S. FEARLESS NCC-14598 Starfleet propulsion specialist Kosinski tested an experimental warp drive upgrade on the Fearless in 2364, Assigned to planetary mapping in the Beta Cygni system in 2369 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. TECUMSEH NCC-14934 Commanded by Captain Raymond, Fought during the Cardassian War, Partisipated in counter attack against Klingon Forces near Ajilon Prime with the Rutledge in 2373, Suffered losses in 2374 during the Dominion war OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. POTEMKIN NCC-18253 Posting of Will Riker after leaving Betazed, Assists in the evacuation of Nervala IV Science station and involved in hostilities at Turkana IV in 2361, part of the 9th fleet assigned to DS9 in 2374 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. LIVINGSTON NCC-34099 Ben Sisko and Curzon Dax once served on the Livingston OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. INTREPID NCC-38907 First ship on the scene after responding to a distress call from the site of the Khitomer massacre in 2346 DECOMISSIONED
U.S.S. CROCKETT NCC-38955 Transported Admiral Mitsuya to DS9 in 2370 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. MALINCHE NCC-38997 Commanded by Captain Sanders, Attacked by Maquis forces in 2373, had to be towed back to DS9 for repairs OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. GORKON NCC-40512 Part of the task force during expected Borg invasion and Admiral Nechayev's flagship 2369 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. FREDRICKSON NCC-42111 Docked at Utopia Planitia in 2371, Damaged and had to be towed after an encounter with Jem'hadar forces in early 2374 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. CAIRO NCC-42136 Commanded by Captain Jellico in 2369, Destroyed by Jem'hadar near the Romulan Neutral Zone in 2374 while under the command of Captain Leslie Wong DESTROYED
U.S.S. KONGO NCC-42173 Partisipated in invasion of Chin'toka in late 2374 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. CHARLESTON NCC-42285 Transported 20th-Century survivors back to Earth in 2364, Apart of Picard's tachyon detection grid in 2368, Assigned to deep space exploration in sector 22853 in 2369 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. HOOD NCC-42296 Commanded by Captain Robert DeSoto, Willian Riker's posting as Executive Officer after serving aboard the Potemkin, Met Enterprise=D at Deneb IV in 2364, Transported Tam Elbrun to Enterprise-D in 2366, sent to the the Romulan Neutral Zone due to warnings of a Romulan buildup at Nelvana III in 2366, Scheduled to join the Enterprise-D on a terraforming mission on planet Browder IV in 2366, Apart of Picard's tachyon detection grid in 2367, Underwent major systems upgrade at Starbase 134 in 2369, Partisipated in invasion of Chin'toka in late 2374 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. LAKOTA NCC-42768 Tried to stop Defiant during Admiral Leyton's attempted coup in 2372 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. GRISSOM NCC-42857 Was near the Sigma Erandi system during the tricyanate contamination on Beta Agni II in 2366, only 6 Survived out of a crew of 1200 when the ship was destroyed by Jem'hadar at the Battle of Ricktor Prime in 2375 DESTROYED
U.S.S. AL-BATANI NCC-42995 Commanded by then Captain Owen Paris, Science officer was Kathryn Janeway OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. VALLEY FORGE NCC-43305 Partisipated in invasion of Chin'toka in late 2374 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. CRAZY HORSE NCC-50446 Part of task force 3 during expected Borg invasion of 2369, transported Admiral Erik Pressman to Enterprise-D in 2370 OPERATIONAL
U.S.S. MELBOURNE NCC-62043 Lost at the battle of Wolf 359 in 2367 DESTROYED
U.S.S. FARRAGUT NCC->UNW< Transported Genetically engineered group posing as starfleet officers to DS9 in 2375 OPERATIONAL
Now, out of all that lot, excluding all ships seen since Wolf 359 or are known to have been destroyed or decommisioned before hand...only these ships are potential candidates for a Wolf 359 appearance:-
OKINAWA LIVINGSTON AL-BATANI INTREPID
These were never seen, only mentioned in the past tence. So technically any or all of these could have been at Wolf 359, the only thing we know for certain is that the Intrepid wasn't in service by about 2370 so if only one of these could have been there, then this is the best candidate.
posted
I'd think she'd been destroyed.. We saw her lose control, and typically that would make a target that much easier to hit (though the OWPs didn't seem to have much trouble hitting anything during the fight...).
I stand corrected on the Repulse, though I stand fast on my belief that the Farragut in "Crysalis" was not the Excelsior hanging from the docking pylon. So there. Schmaa.
posted
Even if the Borg adapted to your phasers (or other energy weapon), couldn't you still just shoot them with a machine gun? I'd like to see them adapt to good, old fashioned, high-velocity lead.
I always thought that every time in the original series someone magically waved his hand and made their phasers stop working, Kirk should have pulled out a revolver...
Certainly the Borg's personal shields are based around adapting to and stopping energy weapons... and hand to hand combat it still effective... so I gotta figure a good shotgun would be pretty hard for them to adapt to!
Weren't ships like the Akira, Steamrunner and Sabre part of the Defiant/Intrepid Borg Buster line?
The general concensus in fandom is that no, they weren't. While the theory of "the higher you go with the NCC numbers, the newer the ship it is" has plenty of holes and contradiction, it is the theory that some of the show's tech writers wanted to go with and tried to stick with. This means, therefore, that the Akira, Steamrunner, Norway and possibly Sabre classes were around some time before the beginning of TNG.
The most obvious hole in this logic is the one the most of the anti-chronological NCCers like to point out: if all these ships were supposed to be around before the Enterprise-D, then why hell have we never seen any of them before "First Contact"? Put simply, within the context of the show they simply weren't seen. For example, the Soyuz-class USS Bozeman was around during Kirk's time but not once did we see one puttering around in the background. There's a difference in that they explicitly mention the service time of the Soyuz class, but the analogy holds true. We've debated NCCs to no end here before, but in short there's little to prove that the Akira, etc. are post-Wolf 359 designs.
Some enterprising (sic) authors who didn't do their homework (notably, the bunch of guys who wrote the "Official" histories of these ships for the recent RPG) have mangaed to slip through this more popular logic, and as a result this is one of the more common things we debate about.
Now, I know the Akira writeup in the Starship Spotter goes with the Akira = new sentiment. While the writeup itself is more than feasible, it ignores the "NCC Intent" theory in favour of making the Akira way newer than most people think it should be.
quote:Originally posted by Mojo: Even if the Borg adapted to your phasers (or other energy weapon), couldn't you still just shoot them with a machine gun? I'd like to see them adapt to good, old fashioned, high-velocity lead.
I always thought that every time in the original series someone magically waved his hand and made their phasers stop working, Kirk should have pulled out a revolver...
Revolver, nuthin. I'd like to see someone in Trek carrying around the equivalent of the M-41A pulse rifle from "Aliens"! Now THAT's a gun!
quote:Certainly the Borg's personal shields are based around adapting to and stopping energy weapons... and hand to hand combat it still effective... so I gotta figure a good shotgun would be pretty hard for them to adapt to!
Mojo
Presumably the Borg have yet to come up with a suitable defense against good ole' kinetic force. For whatever reason, sci-fi seems to equate energy weapons as more powerful than lead, thus this is possibly why no one thinks of carrying around something that CAN'T vapourize a target.
However, if you're thinking about Borg adaptations, you might consider the makeover of the Borg within the context of TNG to be one such adaptation against projectile weapons. We see in "Q Who?" that the majority of Borg walked around in simple body stalkings covered with technological doodads. However, by "Descent" everyone had rubber suits and full body armour. Concievably, this stuff is a heck of a lot more resilient to a bullet (and a bunch of other stuff) than some wool overgarment.
Mark
[ January 24, 2002, 20:55: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
OnToMars
Now on to the making of films!
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posted
There was a thread about this awhile ago. The conclusion we came to was that they can adapt to projectile weapons to. They adapt to photons without too much trouble. Just nobody else ever tried it before Picard in First Contact and they were unprepared for it.
(Damn you Mark!)
But yeah, in a world of forcefields and energy shields, energy weapons are inherently desirable, because they release tons more energy against an energy defense. When you get right down to it, the kinetic energy unleashed against an energy shield can't add up to much to be effective.
[ January 24, 2002, 20:35: Message edited by: OnToMars ]
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EdipisReks
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posted
we only saw picard shoot 2 drones with the tommy gun. if there had been a third, it might have been adapted. remember, phasers usually get off a couple shots per frequency against the borg, so i can't think of any reason why projectile weapons would be any different.
posted
I'll second Mark's comments. The Akira/Steamrunner/Sabre-are-post-W359 camp has been a steadily-decreasing minority to the point where the people you hooked up with for Starship Spotter must've been about half of all people total who still subscribe to that interpretation. (Jesus, that sounded pretentious. And they wonder why us fans get a bad rap. )
For what it's worth, Sternbach, Okuda and the rest of the gang have spoken on the newsgroups to the effect that their take is that the registry numbers are still sequential and that these ships were indeed around, but unseen (hint, hint ), during TNG's run. They also tend to support the idea that these ships aren't gloriously overarmed monster ships but just more of the same, scaling back the torpedo launcher numbers in the DS9TM and so-on. IIRC, in Alex Jaeger's interview about designing the Akira and pals it was implied he'd envisioned them as some kind of a crew of Federation mega-battleships that had been around but not necessarily as a result of the Borg threat. Of course, Jaeger is somewhat notorious for being a "hey guns and space fighters cool" militarist when it came to Trek and most of us just sigh and scratch our heads when it comes to the thing bristling with weapons.
As far as meshing with the actual onscreen canon of the Trek universe, it was strongly implied and/or said outright numerous times that the Galaxy-class was the meanest thing the Federation had to offer during the period of TNG's run. And, of course, it was an Explorer, for "Starfleet isn't a military organization" and "Starfleet doesn't build warships." The Defiant was introduced very much as the only exception to that rule, a starship built expressly for combat post W359, with the added implication that the whole idea of building a dedicated fleet of Borg-busting vessels never happened because the Defiant was so problematic.
The Intrepid has certainly never, ever been intended as a Borg-buster. That contradicts pretty much everything that the ship was envisioned as by its designers and the creative staff.
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posted
Mojo, please ignore this bit about a completely non-existent "consensus." No such thing exists. In spite of the gripes about the registry numbers, it is BLATANTLY obvious that the Akira, Saber, Steamrunner, and Norway are all from a similar and relatively new design family. The Jaeger designs all share numerous elements in common, and positively REEK of "super-duper-bad-ass-battleship." Now, it's possible that these designs may have been initially conceived at an earlier time (Cardassian War) and simply never came to fruition until later, after Wolf 359. This would go a long ways to explain the NCC's to those who are desperate for such an explanation. They, like the Defiant-class, could have been in the works for a while but were re-designed w/augmented offensive and defensive tactical systems, but the final products seen in First Contact definitely look to have been specifically tailored to combat the threat of the Borg. Such was Jaeger's intention, and there's really no reason why it can't be adhered to without difficulty. In fact, as has been said, to do otherwise would go against the concept of a peaceful UFP and Starfleet mainly occupied with exploratory and diplomatic endeavors that was implied throughout TNG.
And Reverend:
quote:U.S.S. KONGO NCC-42173 Participated in invasion of Chin'toka in late 2374 OPERATIONAL
Again w/this? I thought the only place this EVER cropped up was in one alleged phone conversation between Okuda and Peregrinus (who was quite hazy on the details) in which Okuda said he was considering using the NAME in a DS9 battle ep. We've never been able to track down where the reg came from, or make any kind of confirmation that it ever was used. I realize that it really has nothing important to do w/the topic of your post, but I had just thought we had it settled. Do you know something I don't? Please share it.
-MMoM
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), during TNG's run. They also tend to support the idea that these ships aren't gloriously overarmed monster ships but just more of the same, scaling back the torpedo launcher numbers in the DS9TM and so-on. IIRC, in Alex Jaeger's interview about designing the Akira and pals it was implied he'd envisioned them as some kind of a crew of Federation mega-battleships that had been around but not necessarily as a result of the Borg threat. Of course, Jaeger is somewhat notorious for being a "hey guns and space fighters cool" militarist when it came to Trek and most of us just sigh and scratch our heads when it comes to the thing bristling with weapons. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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