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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Community » The Flameboard » Time to bow out... (Page 12)

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Author Topic: Time to bow out...
First of Two
Better than you
Member # 16

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Either way, it's a technical win for the Bush camp.
And for the citizens of Florida.

Imagines a Mortal Kombat game with Gore reeling...

FINISH HIM!

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



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Malnurtured Snay
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Yes, well, Gore gave himself the death blow by dragging this out this long, IMHO.

I also think Bush is being very gracious in trying to give Gore some room in conceding and not demanding it.

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First of Two
Better than you
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Yeah, most other folks would be saying "Kiss my dimpled chad!"

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



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Malnurtured Snay
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I think I'd wind up swallowing it ... they're rather small, aren't they?

Now, "kiss my ballot..."

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Jay the Obscure
Liker Of Jazz
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Did anyone actually listen to the argument before the Court?

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns


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Sol System
two dollar pistol
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I accidently stopped on C-Span while it was on, and was knocked into a catatonic state before I could change the channel. I'm not sure how long I stayed that way, but by the time I awoke I found myself with a complete and total understanding of the American political system and everyone in it. Also, it was the year 10,191 and I found myself thrust into a rather complex situation on a dry little planet. I won't bore you with the details, but I eventually found my way back to our time. Unfortunately, I lost all that knowledge on the trip back, and I picked up a nasty little spice addiction to boot.

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An early chat with death
To pull your body for a moment from your soul
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Diane
aka Tora Ziyal
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LOL

Oh, this sig's for you.

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"Solipsism, like other absurdities of the professional philosopher, is a product of too much time wasted in library stacks between the covers of a book, in smoke-filled coffeehouses (bad for the brains) and conversation-clogged seminars. To refute the solipsist or the metaphysical idealist all that you have to do is take him out and throw a rock at his head: if he ducks he's a liar."
--Edward Abbey


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Malnurtured Snay
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"There's an old election night story that the political trickster Dick Tuck likes to tell. The losing candidate gets up to give his concession speech and says, 'The people have spoken - the bastards!' This time the people haven't spoken, and it's the winning presidential candidate who may be bastardized -if not now, then down the road. With the candlepower of its justices lighting up the public debate last week, the Supreme Court has been enhanced. The presidency, by contrast, is dimming. When an election falls within the margin of error, the winner has little margin for error.

"The line of analysis can be overdone. The next president will not suffer an immediate crisis of legitimacy: American democracy is too resilient for that. Like a sick baby, the new president will be nutured by high-minded editorial page and a forgiving and patriotic public. If it's President Bush, the Democrats would tolerate him more than a President Gore; Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle just can't match House Majority Whip Tom DeLay in the partisan-vengeance department. But either Bush or Gore will be able to get things done.

"What they won't be able to do is control the partisan passions that may knock over the furniture of American politics. If Bush wins, blacks and other minorities will feel aggrieved and turn out even stronger in the future, consolidating their demographic gains and seriously hurting Republicans for years to come. If Gore somehow manages to win, conservatives will be energized and radicalized. What began as an effort to delegitimize Bill Clinton as early as 1993 (Republican in Congress told Democrats he was 'your president,' not theirs) would become a bloodless civil war, with boycotts of the inaguaration by GOP diginitaries that would almost certainly backfire on the delegitmatizers.

"Let's look at the more likely outcome first: the clock runs out and Bush wins. Amid the partisan scrum, a critical fact has been ignored. The Sunshine State has an exceptionally strong sunshine law that allows wide public access to government documents. If conservative gadfly Larry Klayman could examine Palm Beach ballots last week, how long will it take a liberal gadfly to examine the 10,000 undercounted Miami-Dade ballots next year?

"In other words, this isn't Chicago 1960, where votes are stolen under cover of darkness. These Florida ballots will be hand-counted sooner or later. Sooner is better, not just for Gore but for Bush's legitimacy. If Bush is elected and it's proved on a hand count that Gore actually carried Florida, what will the country say? 'Ooops' isn't going to cut it.

"The GOP may have stepped on a land mine this year. Consider what happened in California in the mid 1990's, when the then Gov. Pete Wilson antagonized immigrants and minorities. California moved from hotly contested to solid Democratic. Or look at Florida this year, where African-Americans, angry at Jeb Bush for abolishing affirmative action, helped drive statewide turnout to a remarkeable 70 percent of registered voters. Now extend that trend to the rest of the country, with new voting machines (a sure bet) that don't disproportionately stymie minority ballots, as punch cards do.

"Jess Jackson's outrage isn't enough to change the election, but it will almost certainly change the next one. While he can't prove his charge that Republicans engaged in "a voter suppression scheme on a wide scale", he can make plenty of headway in registering the 9 million blacks who are eligible to vote but still unregistered. Bush won big with white males, but white males aren't running the world the way they once did. In fact, fairly soon, white males will be ... a minority group."

"Bush and Cheney get this. What they don't get is that Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, and Cheney's calls for 'diversity' in the cabinet (which must make Lynne Cheney, high priestess of the anti-political-correctness crowd, bust a gut) are not likely to pay big political dividends. For all the warm and fuzzy talk of inclusion last summer, Bush ended up doing worse among blacks, Hispanics, and even Asian-Americans than anyone expected. And that was before all the recent unpleasantness.

"Looking ahead, Republicans will be under pressure not just to reach out but to fight the demographic trends and way they can. If Florida had not been among those few states that bar anyone with a felony conviction from voting, Gore would have won comfortably. (The GOP is angry that 445 such felons apparently voted anyway, mostly for Gore.) It's not hard to imagine other Republican-controlled state legislatures moving aggressively to disenfranchise ex-cons; felons don't exactly have a powerful lobby. This will likely ripen as an issue soon, with Bush (convicted of a misdemeanor DUI charge, not a felony) caught in the middle of old-fashioned race politics.

"The best approach to ensuring legitimacy has been clear for weeks: a hand count in all of Florida's 67 counties. Gore waited too long to take that position, and when he did, it was mostly a bargaining chip, offered only if Bush agreed. Had Gore himself immediately petitioned for hand counts statewide, he would have held the high road from the start. Bush, in turn, has never shown any awareness that winning by a margin of .00052% without counting all of the disputed ballots might pose a problem for his legitimacy. Both men were well born, but their presidential parentage is out of a Faulkner novel. However agreeable and successful he turns out to be, the new president is doomed to be seen by many Americans as a bastard."

--Jonathan Alter, NEWSWEEK, Dec. 11, 2000

Just for discussion. But I know Omega is already mumbling under his breath that I take all my arguments direct from 'liberally controled media' 'cuz we all know it is a vast left wing conspiracy, right little guy?*

* = Not intended as an ad-homenium

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited December 06, 2000).]


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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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Ad HOMINEM, you lingually challenged twit. It's spelled H-O-M-I-N-E-M. You could at least do yourself the favor of seeing how the word is spelled by looking at the times First and I have used it. Maybe you could even look it up.

Oh, and BTW, that was not an attack intended to prove a logical point or anything like that. Just an expression of frustration.

"Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle just can't match House Majority Whip Tom DeLay in the partisan-vengeance department."

I'd like to see his examples for this, but... hey, he didn't give any! I wonder why?

"If Bush wins, blacks and other minorities will feel aggrieved and turn out even stronger in the future, consolidating their demographic gains and seriously hurting Republicans for years to come."

And I thought liberals didn't stereotype people. Exactly why would minorities do that? BECAUSE they're minorities? I think not. It'll be more likely that they'll judge Bush on what he does and what effect it has once he's in office, and since tax cuts nearly by definition are good for the economy, chances are these minorities are going to be better off after the Bush admin. It's just a question of whether they see it.

And what of the Cuban refugee community? They're a minority, right? And yet they didn't support Gore. Funny thing, stereotyping: there're always numerous exceptions.

"boycotts of the inaguaration by GOP diginitaries that would almost certainly backfire on the delegitmatizers."

Funny, I think I've heard this before somewhere...

*thinks*

Oh, yes! They said the exact same thing durning the Clinton trial! Looks like they were wrong then, too, huh?

"What began as an effort to delegitimize Bill Clinton as early as 1993"

There was no such effort. No one tried to "delegitimize" Clinton. He was, sadly, president, and no one denied it.

And no, that quote from the Republicans is NOT an effort to delegitimize. It can be taken any number of ways.

"If conservative gadfly Larry Klayman could examine Palm Beach ballots last week, how long will it take a liberal gadfly to examine the 10,000 undercounted Miami-Dade ballots next year?"

But did you hear about the results of that man's examination? He found ballots with TAPE on them, holding chads in place! These ballots have been tampered with during the hand counts, thus rendering said counts unreliable. Simple as that.

As for your so-called "undervote", why dinna you go find out exactly what you're talking about? Those ballots WERE counted. Twice. They were determined not to contain a vote for president. If someone counted these ballots by hand, it'd be far easier for them to create new votes like they've been doing. See, that's why we had that deadline the court rewrote: to prevent tampering with the ballots. If some liberal watchdog group counted the ballots and found Gore won, no one would believe them. There'd be no way for the group to prove that they did not actively create the votes they found.

"If Bush is elected and it's proved on a hand count that Gore actually carried Florida, what will the country say? 'Ooops' isn't going to cut it."

As said above, you couldn't prove anything. The most reliable count is the machine count, and Bush won both of those.

"Now extend that trend to the rest of the country, with new voting machines (a sure bet) that don't disproportionately stymie minority ballots, as punch cards do."

I'd love to know how he figures this, too. But, hey! Again, no evidence. Just an unsubstantiated claim.

"Jess Jackson's outrage isn't enough to change the election, but it will almost certainly change the next one."

Yeah, the more people he lies to, the more people he encourages to act as irrationally as he does, the greater chance that Hillary'll win in '04. Can't argue with that.

"What they don't get is that Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, and Cheney's calls for 'diversity' in the cabinet (which must make Lynne Cheney, high priestess of the anti-political-correctness crowd, bust a gut) "

Another funny thing. This person assumes that if you're against PC, then you must also be racist. But then, all Republicans are racist, aren't they?

"If Florida had not been among those few states that bar anyone with a felony conviction from voting, Gore would have won comfortably."

Oh, I can't imagine why a criminal would support Al Gore. It's not like he's ever broken the law or anything. And none of his major backers are criminals, either.

"The GOP is angry that 445 such felons apparently voted anyway, mostly for Gore."

Again, can't imagine why they would be angry.

"It's not hard to imagine other Republican-controlled state legislatures moving aggressively to disenfranchise ex-cons; felons don't exactly have a powerful lobby."

Oh, yes, gotta let those rapists, pedophiles, and thieves vote, you know. They have rights, too.

Come on, if they had all the rights we do, why can we keep them in cells?

"This will likely ripen as an issue soon, with Bush (convicted of a misdemeanor DUI charge, not a felony) caught in the middle of old-fashioned race politics."

A) He wasn't convicted of anything. He was never on trial. He paid his fine that night, and went home.

B) It was expunged from his record, thus it wouldn't affect him, even if it was a felony.

C) It's only race politics because that's what the Democrats always turn it into.

D) I wonder which breaking campaign fundraising laws qualifies as: misdemeanor or felony?

"The best approach to ensuring legitimacy has been clear for weeks: a hand count in all of Florida's 67 counties."

Again, how do you figure? The democrats have shown they'll do anything to win, including steal the election by screwing with the ballots. Hand counts are unreliable. There are no standards, and there's no way to prevent the ballots from being tampered with. There's a reason we use machines for this.

"Bush, in turn, has never shown any awareness that winning by a margin of .00052% without counting all of the disputed ballots might pose a problem for his legitimacy."

If he won according to the law, he's legitimate. According to the law, he won. Therefore he is legitimate. Simple as that.

And again, all the ballots have been counted. They've all been run though the machines. Twice. Gore lost. Period.

Oh, wait. I take that back. Some ballots WEREN'T counted: the military ballots that Gore got disqualified. But I thought every vote counted?

"However agreeable and successful he turns out to be, the new president is doomed to be seen by many Americans as a bastard."

Every poll shows that a majority of Americans believe that Bush won the election, and will consider him legitimate when he's sworn in.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"


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First of Two
Better than you
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I heard this morning that the number of felons who voted for Gore in Florida (in Dade County alone) may be as high as 5000.

Guess they should take better notice of the people they're busing to the polls.

Wonder if Bush will demand a recount of this obviously fraud-laden area... at least there, there's some good cause.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master



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Omega
Some other beginning's end
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Sure you're not thinking of the 5,000 Hatian immigrants that illegally voted, Rob? Not that it matters, either way, but...

Anyway, this is all academic. Jeb Bush already signed the bill of ascertainment, and sent it to the federal archives. The electors have been chosen, and they're required by oath in Florida to vote for their party's candidate. What's more, the Supreme Court of Florida once ruled that a court can not order the governor to accept a second set of returns, so the court case is pointless, as well. And if, by some miracle, Gore manages to get a second slate of electors named in HIS favor, the four times in history that two slates have been sent in, the one the governor signed off on has always been used. Gore's only chance now is for him to bribe or blackmail three of the electors from states that don't require them to vote for their party.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"


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Malnurtured Snay
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I just thought the article was interesting to post, as people are banding about "His Fraudulency" for both Gore and Bush ...

Re: my spelling of Ad-whatever ... "hokt on foniks werkt 4 mi"

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PsyLiam
Hungry for you
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Great BRITAIN, you lingually challenged twit. It's spelled B-R-I-T-A-I-N. You could at least do yourself the favour of seeing how the word is spelled by looking at the times I and everyone else have used it. Maybe you could even look it up.
Oh, and BTW, that was not an attack intended to prove a logical point or anything like that. Just an expression of frustration.

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"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer


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Malnurtured Snay
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Ad-Hominem ... Ad-Homenium

So I'm a creative speller ... so sue me

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[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited December 06, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited December 06, 2000).]


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Jeff Raven
Always Right
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Liam, that was hilarious.

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"I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999


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