I will now have to put in my own two cents on the subject, (making a total of four cents, if you count my original post to this thread). An interesting point is that I actually concur with Omega regarding God and micromanagement. Hmm. The thought of agreeing with a highly religious person scares me very much.

In any case, it was the thought of Enlightened philosophers of the Renaissance that the universe was a clock made by God. He wound it, and then left it to sit and see what happened. In other words, God doesn't micromanage because he doesn't have to. He wrote the laws of the universe, (or so these philosophers believed), and then let it alone to run it's course. Why WOULD he micromanage?

I also agree with JeffK. What you all find so fascinating with literal translations of an ancient text written by fanatics is beyond me.

However, I disagree with JeffR. I do not believe God's existance can be proven to the masses. I think it can only be proven on an individual basis and never empirically. How do you PROVE the existance of God?

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1.Linguistics. The study or science of meaning in language forms.
2.Logic. The study of relationships between signs and symbols and what they represent. In this sense, also called semasiology.

Would #2 not be what this thread is about?

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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

But we're the ones who have to walk through it.

God didn't lay the minefield. Satan did. God said, "Hey, see that minefield? Don't go in there." Adam and Eve didn't listen, and the entire human race has been LIVING in that minefield ever since.

'Course, the analogy of a minefield isn't QUITE right, 'cause you can get blown up just by sitting still in this one. A minefield where Satan tests his artillary?

And God didn't give us sin. Have you even read Genesis? We CREATED sin (at least, as far as humanity was concerned). Have you gone libby on me, Rob? WE are responsible for our actions.

WE, functional modern humans, are responsible for our actions, because WE know the difference between right and wrong.

The Bible clearly states that Adam and Eve had to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil BEFORE they knew the difference between right and wrong.
Therefore, before they ate, they couldn't have been responsible for their own actions any more than a child who hasn't developed mentally enough to understand 'right' and 'wrong' could. Essentially, they had a mental (or moral, more accurately) age of two to four.

Adam and Eve were guilty of gullibility, perhaps, but NOT wrongdoing. They couldn't be. They had no concept of 'wrong.'

What the Bible states God did was essentially equivalent to:

Putting a 4-year-old child in a room with a toy Or a lot of toys.
**(God places Adam, & The Tree of Knowledge in Eden)
Telling the child not to play with one toy in particular (thus making it 'special' and a focus of curiosity for the child, as any parent can tell you).
**(God's command to Adam: do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge)
Leaving the room.
**(God departed from Eden, or at least he was away while the whole apple thing happened)
WATCHING, from the other room, as an adult you KNOW does not have the best intentions of the child at heart enters, and tells the kid that you were only kidding, and its okay to play with the toy.
**(God allowed Satan to enter the garden and tempt Adam, since, as we know, nothing can happen without God's knowing about it.)

I put it to you that only a very stupid and unfit parent could actually bring themselves justify being angry with that child under those circumstances. Pissed at the other ADULT, sure. But the kid? No. It's unjustifiable.

God made the minelayer, and gave him free reign to sow his mines.

GOD is responsible for Satan. Much like, and even moreso, the parents of these school shooters are partially responsible for THEIR monsters. Moreso, because God can't claim He was ignorant of what was going on.

You can't make a monster and set it free in the world and NOT expect to take some of the blame for the havoc it wreaks.

Satan = FrankenGod's Monster. That's what happens when you put an abnormal brain in one of your angels.

I haven't gone libbie on you... God has. Who else but an Uberliberal would give a guy like Satan, who caused no end of trouble in Heaven, where nearly omnipotent beings are a dime a dozen, unlimited parole on Earth?

Remember, we conservatives have pretty much learned that parole almost never works, right? You don't let an unrepentant, evil, serial... EVERYTHING... out on the streets! YOU LOCK THEM AWAY FOR GOOD, or if you have to, you frag them!

That's like allowing somebody convicted of child abuse to run a damn DAYCARE, for Chrissakes!!!

Satan: God's Willie Horton.

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

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Not even a god can deny that I have squared the circle of a static Earth and cubed the Earth sphere by rotating it once to a dynamic Time or Life Cube.
--
Gene Ray
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Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" Or don't. You know, whatever.

Hope Omega's not sick or something.

Maybe he's looking for a smarter theologian.

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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

God made the minelayer, and gave him free reign to sow his mines.

It's called FREE WILL. Satan's got it, too. God doesn't interfere with his creations, except to do them the VERY occasional frikin' big favor. One of the keys to it all is that what happens on earth doesn't matter all that much. God may very well allow me to be run over by a bus (HEY! Stop that cheering, you guys.), but really, it's not going to affect ME that much.

You don't let an unrepentant, evil, serial... EVERYTHING... out on the streets! YOU LOCK THEM AWAY FOR GOOD

Which will be done. Give him a few millenia, Rob.

The Bible clearly states that Adam and Eve had to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil BEFORE they knew the difference between right and wrong.

Ah, not quite. They knew about sin. Sin is doing something God tells you not to. They knew God's command, they knew the consequences. They weren't quite as innocent as you think.

The problem with your analogy is that a four-year-old has many experiences already. We're talking about someone with adult understanding, but no experience. You can't say how they'd react.

Another thing: Satan wouldn't quite qualify as an adult. He'd be more like a somewhat bigger kid.

God places extreme value on our free will. We, as a race, CHOSE death, way back in Eden, and death we shall have.

Modify the analogy somewhat: God sends the kid into the playroom, gives him the instructions, and then absolutely promises to let him play, and not to inerfere unless asked. He can't break his word, even if the child hurts himself by disobedience; unless, of course, the child ASKS for help.

We damned ourselves back there. We skinned our knees on a terrible, cosmic level. God's standing right in front of you, ready to heal you, but you refuse to take the bandage.

The child analogy is appropriate indeed.

quote:

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We damned ourselves back there. We skinned our knees on a terrible, cosmic level.

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No I didn't.

quote:

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Which will be done. Give him a few millenia, Rob.

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Hasn't that guy in the sky had a few millenia already? Maybe he's just having fun watching us all suffer and he's munching on some popcorn or something.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Unless you're Job, or some other poor schmuck He decides to 'test'.
Or unless you believe that prayers are answered. DO YOU? Because that's interference, m'boy.

"Which will be done. Give him a few millenia, Rob."

Seems like he's already HAD the entire span of human history. 'someday' isn't good enough. What, God can't manage this? after 10,000 years?? Get with the program!

"a four-year-old has many experiences already."

Not enough to keep him from telling when he's being lied to by an adult or a 'bigger kid.'
If you think differently, you've never known a 4-year old who believed in Santa Claus or whose older sibling told them fibs like 'mom and dad are aliens.'

"We're talking about someone with adult understanding, but no experience."

An impossibility. It is ONLY through our experiences that we gain understanding. A person can have the BRAIN of an adult, but without human experience that person is a WILD animal, like the wolf boy of France.

"You can't say how they'd react."

I'll bet I can... I'll bet anybody with a brief background in pasic human psychology can. And I'll bet it's exactly what DID happen. They didn't understand, so they were fooled.

"Satan wouldn't quite qualify as an adult. He'd be more like a somewhat bigger kid.'

Yeah, a spoiled kid with the power of the whole Q Continuum. And whose never been taught proper discipline.
Oompa-Loomaspeak: "Who do you blame when a kid is a brat? ..... the mother and the father..."

"God places extreme value on our free will."

Except when He doesn't, like repeatedly 'hardening pharoah's heart' every time he decided to let the children of Israel go, because he wanted 'to make an example' of Egypt. There's no value of free will there. God should've let the Pharoah stick to his decision to let the people go. But He didn't, just to show off His power.

YOUR analogy once again leaves out the incredibly neglectful aspects of letting someone else whose KNOWN intention is corruption and harm (Satan) into the room and giving them free reign to tell any lie to an inexperienced child.

No parent could act that way and deserve the title. No parent deserving of the name would refuse to aid their child unless ASKED.

I CAN give you an example of a parent who DOES act that way... the young mother who leaves her baby in the hands of her live-in (for three weeks) drunken boyfriend while she goes out. And the guy ends up abusing or killing the kid.

We know wnough not to blame the child. We know that it's the boyfriend's fault for malice, AND the mother's fault for having incredibly POOR judgement.

'Yeah, a spoiled kid with the power of the whole Q Continuum. And whose never been taught proper discipline.'"

So if the first humans had been Eve and Patrick Stewart, good ol Satan would have enjoyed sparring with the first man, and would have turned out to be an okay bloke who just appeared now and again for comic relief and humourous site-gags?

Now, I've tried to pay attention here, but apart from noticing that people are being rather unfair on Omega (sitting their saying "no, you're wrong, because God is a big silly man who's not real." is just as bad as saying "no, you're wrong, because guns are good. I am the last!"), but I haven't succeeded.

Instead, I have spent the last two pages wondering about the following connection.

Lesbianism = wiccaness

Look at the evidence! Willow (cute lesbian!), Quatre's boyfriend (male lesbian!), Tara (annoying lesbian who can't do anything apart from walk around going "I'm a lesbian! And a witch! Aren't I annoyingly lesbian-esk?", Lee, and those women from that movie!

Searching for a common factor, I can only find "bad taste in clothes". But if that's true, how come Simon isn't a Wicca? Or a lesbian?

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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park

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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."

-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.

I wear black most of the time and I still look SMALL.

Dammit.