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Ace

"Objects in mirror are closer than they appear."

What did you want to start? World War III?!

President Truman recognized this and that's why he fired MacArthur, who had the "great" idea to bomb China, the U.S.S.R.'s ally at the time. Do you want to show me how we would have been better off in ANOTHER world war?

If we go to war with China today, Russia would ally with them because they view the United States as a greater potential enemy, especially after the spying incident and economic trouble.

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Ace

"Objects in mirror are closer than they appear."

However, whom do we blame when spies get caught? The people who caught them, or the people doing the spying?

Oh, come on, a Clancy fan who doesn't even know the difference between legal and illegal espianage? We had every right to be where we were. It's not a matter of being caught. We weren't trying to hide what we were doing. It's a matter of our people being ILLEGALLY held.

The US was caught in the act of spying

Oh, boo-hoo, we were "spying". So frikin' what? It was perfectly legal, unlike what the Chinese are doing.

Let's try some analogies, and see if those get through.

Say I call you a jerk, for whatever reason. Say you, in response, punch me in the nose and take my wallet. (I'm sure you like this analogy.) Say you then demand an apology before you'll give my wallet back. Who's the bad guy?

Well, my calling you a jerk would be well within my right of free speech. Your punching me and taking my wallet, however, is a crime. In the real world, you would be legally required to give the wallet back, and probably do some jail time as well.

See it?

Try this one: what if, instead of expelling all the Russian diplomats that were spying on us, we arrested them instead? They were spying on us. So what if arresting them's in violation of the most fundamental international law? They deserved it. What do you think would have happened to us?

TEL:

Or is national pride more important than the lives of military personnel?

You still don't get it. They HAVE to give our people back. They have no choice. What, can they hold them as POWs? If they don't give them back, eventually, they will be economically destitute.

JK:

However, the Chinese view an "apology" more as an "oh, excuse me." What you might say to someone after you bump into them in the hallway. It wouldn't be an admission of responsibility as much of acknowledging that an accident had occured.

If that's the case, then why are they not accepting our offer of our regrets as an apology? Sounds like what they want, according to you.

didn't AMERICAN pilot error (essentially) cause a great big American submarine to sink a much smaller Japanese boat recently?

Completely different situation. Not even close to analogous.

Is it that hard to assume that the Spy Plane's pilot couldn't have made a similar error of judgement like the Greenville's CO?

Considering it was supposed to have been on autopilot at the time...

Ace:

If we go to war with China today, Russia would ally with them

Russia couldn't afford a war. Their soldiers are begging for food in the subways. If they so much as tried to martial a force, the country'd fall apart into even smaller pieces. And before you bring up their vaunted nukes, they can't have been properly maintained on their low military budget. An ICBM is an extremely fragile device. I doubt those birds would even fly.

And last I heard, the Chinese were liking the idea of a statement of regret. Catch up on the news, bubba.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

As for Tom's post, it says nothing about legal and illegal espianage. Under any circumstances, China, by law, CAN NOT do ANYTHING to a plane over international waters. If he thinks otherwise, well, sorry, but he's wrong. Look up the UN convention on the subject.

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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM

Let's hope you're right...

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Ace

"Objects in mirror are closer than they appear."

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited April 10, 2001).]

Too bad you ignored what The_Tom was talking about. But then, this IS you, we're talking about ...

Not too mention that your analogy is highly inaccurate. Maybe this is a better one:

Person A's car strikes Person B's car. Person A believes Person B to be at fault, but Person B's car is injured, so Person A allows them to stay at their house. When Person A demands an apology from Person B's family, Person B's family refuses, citing that they had the right to drive on that road, and it was probably Person A's fault anyway.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

But what, pray tell, is wrong with my "highly inaccurate" analogies? You didn't say.

The Chinese didn't kidnap that crew. They landed on that island of their own will. Granted, the plane was damaged, but they could have just as easily flown out towards water and hoped a rescue team would find them. I guess my analogy is incorrect -- Person A would willingly find sanction at Person B's home (where they would be well treated).

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

I've been reading some Taiwan-based Chinese newspapers. One from five days ago quotes Tang Jia Xuan (I don't know who the hell that is) saying "This incident is entirely the Americans' fault. Reasonably, they should take complete responsibility and make an apology." He also says "I need to point out, the Chinese continues to take a cool-headed, disciplined, and responsible attitude to deal with this affair." The article says the 24 Americans will be in touch with the American Embassy, and finally this other guy Yang Jie Hu says "I believe, the most important thing is for the US government to face the facts. The US should take all responsibility, and they should apologize to the Chinese."

In this other Chinese article I found online, the American representative says pretty much what 1st described of the incident.
The Chinese rep replies: "the American plane swerved and the Chinese plane was unable to dodge it. We trust our pilot to have done the right thing."

The American rep: "Our people were flying in a straight line. It was your fault."

Chinese rep: "No, they swerved. It's your fault."

American rep: "They did not."

Chinese rep: "Did too."

American rep: "Did not."

Chinese rep: "Did too."

Well, it sounded like that anyway.

A third article I read did some fun psychoanalyses (and gross generalizations) of American attitudes. Here it is.
"Americans often don't understand that it is difficult for foreigners to understand Americans. The U.S. isn't like Europe, with nations each having a single culture, but it has many histories and cultures combined in a great union. Although the contrasts between American cultures have dwindled somewhat in the last few decades, there are still long-term differences. This phenomenon has many interesting effects, one of them is the American view of conflict.

"Different cultures in America have different attitudes toward conflict. Take the South for example. Southerners take their personal honor extremely seriously. If insulted past a certain limit, they are compelled to respond; if they don't, it's seen as a sign of weakness (sounds familiar), but the response only provokes more retaliation. On the other hand, in New England, the center of their culture is ethics. If everyone acts reasonably, their first reaction to any type of invasion should be peaceful resolution, seeking to understand the other party and finding a common ground. But if the other party lacks ethics (or morals?), they are quick to conflict, having an all-out battle, until the other side surrenders."

There's another part to this that has to do with the plane collision. I'll translate that when I get home.

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"There comes a time when the mind takes on a higher plane of knowledge but can never prove how it got there. All great discoveries have involved such a leap."
--Albert Einstein, on intuition.

The Chinese Embassy was the fault of the CIA. They planned what buildings to attack, and it's their damned fault they didn't have up-to-date maps of the area. As I understand it, their maps were several years old.

Not that I'm excusing the incident, it just seems to me blame should be laid where it's deserved, and the CIA deserves the blame in this case. Especially since, as I believe happened, other nations on the allied side of the bombings warned the US that the maps were out-dated.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

"The unfortunate part of the incident at Hainan Island is that perhaps most of the American cultures gravitate toward one thought: that the US and China may eventually come to war. When the ethicists/moralists look at the Tiananmen incident, jailing laborers (wha?), and the Tibetan problem, they already deeply believe that China's leaders need to be taught a lesson. Economists (i.e. people whose main concern is economy), because they have concern for China's markets with cool-headedness from having experience learned from investments and collaborations (*LOL* that's the best I can do), don't want to see Taiwan destroyed. If the collision incident turn into a hostage situation, Southerners who are exceedingly sensitive to shame and slight insults may become infuriated.

The final factor of this conflict is false prediction/estimate on China's part. China, mislead by the Vietnam and Persian Gulf wars, may think that the way to stop U.S. retaliation is by causing heavy American casualties at the start of a war."

Uh...I should remind you guys that this is a huge speculation of some guy from Taiwan. They've been waiting for a war of union with China since the Taiwanese government was established ninety years ago.

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"There comes a time when the mind takes on a higher plane of knowledge but can never prove how it got there. All great discoveries have involved such a leap."
--Albert Einstein, on intuition.

That the second person deliberatly attacked the first person. There's no proof of this. The action would have to be accidental.

Good point. So say your limo driver does something stupid and crashes into my car. I've only got some bruises, and you're just fine (but minus one bad limo driver). You then grab my wallet and refuse to give it back until I apologize for the accident.

Still not get it?

And you never responded to my analogy using the Russian diplomats.

The Chinese didn't kidnap that crew. They landed on that island of their own will.

Holding someone against their will is kidnapping, is it not? If not, what would be the term? I believe that whether you forced them to be where they are, or whether they came of their own free will is irrelevant. They're still being held against their will.

I guess my analogy is incorrect -- Person A would willingly find sanction at Person B's home (where they would be well treated).

But not allowed to leave. A well-furnished prison is a prison, none the less.

Maybe a malfunction with the auto-pilot

Those things are as darned near failure-proof as any bit of tech that we have. If there was ANY possibility of one failing, then 24 men and women wouldn't have trusted their lives to one, now would they of?

Ziyal:

The unfortunate part of the incident at Hainan Island is that perhaps most of the American cultures gravitate toward one thought: that the US and China may eventually come to war.

Well, considering that we got the idea from one of their generals ten years ago, I'd say we have good reason to think that. He even said that it was a certainty, not a possibility. In fact, he's the general running this whole mess on their side!

jailing laborers (wha?)

I think he means striking laborers. I heard something about that.

Militarily, I can�t possible fathom the idea of admitting that surveillance of the Chinese was wrong, because knowing what your neighbor is doing, and having him know that you know what he is doing does nothing in my mind but provide stability. Its not like we are providing Taiwan with an arsenal to retake the mainland. I see this whole thing as something bigger, whether that be the exclusion of arms to Taiwan, testing of W, or American resolve in maintaining a presence for the benefit and security of Taiwan. If memory serves something was said a while back about it not being a question of would Taiwan be taken but when it would be taken. I would like to see a show of hands that believe Taiwan should be given back to China? In my mind they are and should remain separate states until they both decide to get back together. Now you can make references to the American Civil war if you like, but that war was not fought some fifty odd years after the separation, so the grounds that Taiwan being a rogue state to me is ridiculous.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, China has the potential to be the larges consumer country in the world, so trading countries, U.S. included, will sell their souls for a piece of what China has to offer. For those that absolutely detest the U.S. for our meddling, should we be chastised for playing nice and giving in to the Chinese, throwing the Taiwanese to wolves, or playing the perceived John Wayne part and protecting Taiwan. In actuality either way we are going to be doing something wrong, so I ask you what is the more right course of action?

For all I know this whole thing could be the Chinese militaries attempt to receive world attention and recognition as a legitimate and professional military. I several years ago if someone had asked my perception of the Chinese army I would probably conjured up a vision of a peasant carrying an AK47

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Access Password
47at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/9268/index.html