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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
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This is a hairy point continuity wise, and one of the moments of Trek history where we wonder what Okuda was thinknig when he wrote it.
I believe that in BoBW that Admiral Hanson said they had about forty ships. Then, in 'The Drumhead' the official casualty figures was 39 ships and 11,000 personnel.
Somebody figured this meant a ship survived. Even though 'The Best of Both Worlds' pretty much established that there were no starships that survived. The best explanation is that there were always 39 ships there and that they were continuously approximating when they said forty. I think that would be an easy step to make, saying 'almost forty ships' instead of the exact number.
In a Voyager episode, Janeway read the log entry of a Captain Amasov of the USS Endeavour, noting that he had found the Borg to be horrifying to combat. The Encyclopedia assumes that this meant that the Endeavour was at Wolf 359 and survived (since the Endeavour was seen in later productions). But, the fact that Captain Amasov had a log entry about the Borg, this could simply mean that
1) He met the Borg in battle while not in command of the Endeavour. (remember.. Sisko survived to command another ship.. ) by that logic 'Captain Amasov of the Endeavour fought the Borg must mean that the Endeavour was at Wolf 359' is like saying 'Captain Sisko of the Defiant fought the Borg so that must mean that the Defiant was at Wolf 359'.. very faulty logic.
2) He met the Borg in battle while in command of the Endeavour, but not at Wolf 359. Many canon minded fans will say that we didnt meet the Borg anywhere else, but the fact that Starfleet had funded the Hansens to study the Borg long before Q pushed us into them indicates there could be other humans that have fought them. The fact that there were Borg scouts in Fed space (as of I,Borg) indicates that there may have been smaller, non-cataclysmic but still frightening encounters with Borg that werent in a huge-cube all out assault on Earth. There were Borg in Fed space even before the Q contact, because they ravaged lotsa colonies in TNGs first season. Perhaps Amasov (on or off the Endeavour) was involved in an encounter there.
It is the belief of many fans that no ships survived, but Okuda's theory is accepted in some circles, even though it really doesnt make sense for the Endeavour to have just taken off in an opposite direction after Wolf359, before the Enterprise arrived. I think the Okuda theory also dilutes the dramatic intentions of the writers of that episode too. If a ship did survive, i believe it wouldve been severely damaged and possibly unrefittable (unlike the prefectly built Endeavour een later) and possibly a non-combatant that would have a decent reason to leave a battle and then not provide backup for the Enterprise. And if it was an escaping vessel, porbably its the one that recovered the Saratoga escape pods seeing as they were gone by the time the 1701D arrived.
so thats the can of worms you asked about opening
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posted
It could be that the writer of the "Drumhead" (Jeri Taylor) mistakenly assumed that the Enterprise-D was one of the forty, and hence the surviving ship.
The simpler explanation is that "forty" (Admiral Hanson) is an approximation. After all, they needed to get as many ships as they could, not a specific round number. Maybe "forty" was the target number, while only 39 could be gathered in practice. Or maybe there was a 40th ship that just happened not to be there on time. Could make for an interesting story.
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I'd be inclined to believe Jeri Talor consciously "roughened" the 40 ship figure when doing "The Drumhead" to make it sound more like a official figure and less like an approximation. (obscure historical fact: for decades the British imperial surveyors couldn't estimate the height of Mt. Everest any more accurately than 29000 ft, but to make it look more realistic used to print it on their maps as 29001.) Hanson's line in BoBW works just fine in the context of the conversation as a rounded-off figure or an early estimation. The fandom obsession with "there had to be one ship that survived" (especially when you take into account the issue of the USS Ahwahnee) has always struck me as rather anal-retentive.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
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And it already has made for an interesting story.. in Peter David's 'Vendetta' it was stated that Captain Morgan Korsmo was commander of the ship that didnt make it in time, and was furious about it. His new first officer Shelby tries to convince him that he wouldnt have made a difference, but he still gets irrational when it comes to dealing with a new Borg threat, and holds a grudge against the more powerful Enterprise-D for it.
And in a little more irony, Korsmo is mentioned again by David.. as a casualty of the First Contact battle.. looks like he got his big chance.
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Actually, the idea that one ship out of forty survived works for me, and I like the idea dramtically. Having one haggard ship return from this terrible conflict gives us a focus for the emotional burden of the fight and places a huge toll on the crew that made it back.
In fact, I have developed a story for how this ship survived, and it's even based on a line of dialog in BOBW - but alas, you'll have to wait for the book to find out what I've cooked up.
One piece of INCREDIBLE cooncidence tonight: Once I read in the Encyclopedia that one ship did indeed survive, I needed a name for it. So, I pulled out the tech manual and went through ship names before I found one that just 'felt' right to me - the USS ENDEAVOR.
How weird it was that when I came back here to see how people responded to my post that the ship had actually been named in the show as the Endeavor!
posted
Regardless of the original or later intentions of the writers, simple logic requires that at least one ship survive. Otherwise, there could be no surviving *personnel*, since mere lifepods or shuttles would be unlikely to take them to safety, or beyond the sensor range of the E-D when she arrives and finds no survivors. Yet we know that some personnel did survive, including Ben Sisko.
Naturally, there could have been more than one of those surviving ships, if we take the 40 ship figure to be a rough estimate. And Hanson did speak of the possible arrival of further vessels (including Klingon ones).
Personally, I feel that the surviving vessels should not have been of powerful designs, since the retreat of such ships would feel like cowardice. In turn, the retreat of a small ship like Oberth would be a bold and correct choice, if it helped take to safety the survivors from other ships. A Nebula class ship like the Endeavour retreating from the battle just does not sound right - if nothing else, the ship could try ramming, and might even have some realistic chances of getting through the Borg tractor beams, whereas a smaller vessel couldn't even hope to ram successfully.
posted
Damn, I should've kept up with this thread more often...
Although Mojo seems to have ideas of his own already, here's my perspective on the Endeavor (Nebula-class) surviving the battle: a heavier ship is more likely to withstand the massive damage that the Borg cube dealt out, and survive. At the same time, it's possible that the Endeavor was almost totally crippled; there's nothing to say that a surviving ship had to make it out completely intact. So when the fleet is almost totally gone, with just a few ships left, just one ship is NOT going to make any difference. We can even say that previous starships during the battle tried to ram the cube, but without success. And that would be why the Endeavor didn't try that same tactic. (It might also make Riker's attempt to do the same thing later on appear even more desperate, and possibly futile.)
Here's a way to make it even more heroic: say that the Endeavor fought a valiant holding action against the cube, collecting survivors from the other destroyed ships, and this saving crews from certain assimilation. Once they'd collected as many people as possible, they escaped.
True, that doesn't sound quite as heroic as the Enterprise's all-out battle to the bitter end. And maybe that doesn't quite fit. But we know that there have to be survivors of the battle, given that Sisko was on DS9 for seven years. But having ONE ship out of FORTY limp away from the battle scene, and only when there is literally nothing to be done to stop the cube, to me seems just as poignant.
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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
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I just dont want it to be the Endeavour.. or maybe, an earlier Endeavour of a smaller class that was unrecoverable after it delivered the survivors.. and then the new Endeavour was commissioned during season 4 in time to be mentioned and seen later. That would get you around the 'Nebula wouldnt run away' problem we all seem to be getting behind
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I always liked to think that there was some sort of small outpost or research station in orbit of Wolf 359, whose inhabitants were told, essentially, "You don't have time to run. Just be real, real quiet." The Borg come, wipe out the fleet, but leave the relatively worthless civilian station untouched. (Maybe it's on the other side of the star, at the time, or what have you.) After the Borg leave, the traders, or scientists or whomever come out, answer whatever distress signals they find, and then get the heck out of Dodge, as it were.
I'm not sure why. I just like the image of a bunch of tiny, ragtag ships coming to the rescue.
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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
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The deuce you say, Mr. Greene...
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Registered: Jun 2000
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I've always liked the Endevour surviving idea...it has a nice dramatic resonance and is consistant with everything we know about Wolf 359...with only two minor niggles.
1. Why didn't it pursue?
Warp drive knocked out, lossed main power...left to burn in space
2. Where was it when the E-D showed up?
It got better...and limped back to Alpha Centauri with all of the survivors on board
That last one would make a good image...a Nebula Class, the pride of the fleet pulling into spacedock...battered and scarred with its mission pod sliced off, its nacelles mangled almost to the point of destruction...her shuttle bays filled with escapepods, the cargo bays and quarters crowded with the dead and wounded...
posted
I agree with MinutiaeMan. A whimpy, little ship probably would not survive as well as a larger ship such as a Nebula class. Just look at the Excelsior class Melbourne. One shot from the cube and it was done for. And what's wrong with the Endavour being the ship? We see the Endeavour later in the 4th season as part of a fleet under construction/repairs, right? If the Endeavour was severely crippled at Wolf 359, she might have needed an extended repair time.
Also, when Janeway reads Captain Amasov's log, she also quotes Picard, as I recall. Why would she just pick any captain to read about his/her thoughts, esp. when she only quotes two to her first officer out of the other ones she was reviewing? To me, it makes perfect sense to quote Amasov along with Picard because if he was at Wolf 359, she would be reciting from two great sources: the captain who discovered the Borg and the captain who survived the Federation's worse conflict with the Borg.
I like the idea of one ship surviving because it helps explain how Sisko and the other survivors weren't detected by the Ent-D. Like Mojo said, the name "Endeavour" is just another nice touch!
BTW, Mojo, the ship is named after the British Captain Cook's ship, the HMS Endeavour, so there is an extra "u" in the name.
And CaptainMike, be fair to Okuda! He never states the Endeavour IS the surviving ship as canon. He puts it in his annotations beneath the actual entry.
posted
It could also be that Picard and Amasov were just the two most eloquent Borg-log-people.
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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
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yes, the other entries could have been like
Cmdr J.C. Arnold, survivor, USS Bonestell: "The Borg are.. just awful.. i dont like them.. my leg hurts"
Lieutenant Ron L.W. Haskill, survivor, USS Roosevelt "On SD 43982.1 we TACed the surviving FWE units to a STD RTFC sensor array and used LMQ type particle sensor s to DB the retroactive array to rescue POW drone PTCs from periphery 187.3211 mark 4"
Ensign M. Tanner, USS Melbourne "I'm not sure what class ship this is. I'm tired. I had too much ice cream after lunch. Billy in engineering said he had a crush on me to Tom in astrotelemetry, but Sally in the sensory said he has cooties"
Janeway just read the more poetic dudes, like Capt. Amasov from his encounter with the Borg at 4745 Cancri.
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But having ONE ship out of FORTY limp away from the battle scene, and only when there is literally nothing to be done to stop the cube, to me seems just as poignant.
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