posted
Then again, Lucifer and Asmodeus are basically "good" gods in their original context, standing for things like spring, light, and birth. They have simply become associated with the medieval Christian devil in a somewhat unjust way, much like Hermes "became" Merkurius or Zeus "became" Jupiter despite key differences in characterization.
Depending on whether Admiral Roddenberry still was in charge when the Asmodeuses were built, it might also be that all religious figures and deities are summarily considered "evil" and thus good names for "nasty" warships. USS Christ could be a sufficiently "frightening" name for a battlecruiser that has the potential to kill millions.
Hmm. I kinda dig the concept that Sisko's quarters weren't on the outer rim of the ship initially, and that the Borg redecorated the ship more than we thought. But we get a pretty good all-around look of the ship, without seeing such major damage. It must have occurred on the bow (which we don't see after the big hit that prompts the evacuation) if it occurred at all.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: That's one biiiig fucking Oberth in that shot. 300 meters?
Look at the lighting source - maybe it does end up moving horizontal to dock with the pylon... the oberth is in relative darkness but the pylon is in more light.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
Another thing is... I too think there was supposed to be a new design for the Saratoga... It looked like they had quite a large crew for a Miranda ship... considering there was only a handful running the Lantree.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
I think it was rather interesting that there were "families" on a Miranda, especially with nonStarfleet spouses. Especially after (like Andrew said) we've seen the Lantree and Brattain with a crew under 50. Then again, wasn't the Reliant theoretically supposed to have something like 200 crew aboard it, perhaps the case here with the Saratoga??
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#1) Lucifer is a translation from the Latin "Light Bringer" and was thought to have been the prideful angel that took the Fall. Later, as cultures blended somewhat, the term "Satan" (a bastardization of "Shiatan" or advesary) became the catch all for this tester of mortals (see Job for my meaning here: he's not originally depicted as evil in the Old Testament). I've never heard of Asmodeous as anything but a demon name: got a source on a pre-christian refrence?
#2.) The Oberth (Cochrane) could indeed be "closer to the camera" in that scene but for the ship to appear that large, it'd have to be almost touching the other pylons. Depending on your opinion of DS9's size, of course.
#3.) I think the room Sisko found Jennifer and Jake in was at the (relativly) flat plane of windows just aft and above the saucer. I think the windows have buckled outward and are only being held together (as is much of the ship) by the S.I.F., as the Borg casually discect the Saratoga. Mabye the Borg took their time chopping up the ship because of it's a novel variant on the miranda and swatted the Melbourne because they'd already assimilated an Excelsior somewhere prior.
There were likely famlies in limited numbers on the Saratoga because it was assigned to duty well within the protected borders of Federation space. (also accounting for those sensor pontoons instead of the torpedo launcher).
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My general theory is that Mirandas these days take only about 20 people to run the thing. Older ships, or ships on non-frontline missions, are heavily automated and have a selection of mission specialists in addition to the basic crew: a half dozen cargo specialists on the Lantree, or a bunch of scientists on the Br!ttain.
Saratoga, as a specialized ship (or whatever those pods are for) would probably be carrying that same core crew, plus whatever specialists, and then for whatever reason their families. Say, for example, that Saratoga could've been a surveyor on a long-term non-combat mission through mostly explored or Federeation space. Given that we saw only 3-4 escape pods leave the ship (up to ~20 people each, no?), I'm thinking her total crew including civvies would be no more than 100.
Various "combat Mirandas" seen during the war (with or without the questionable addition of impulse engines aft) would likely have no more than 50 aboard, given the probable level of automation. Slap a tactical and damage control crew in there, and you'll have a conteporary of the Defiant. I'm most convinced of that shot in "SoA" with Defiant, Sitak and Majestic flying in formation - just doesn't seem right that the two other ships would still have 200+ people aboard.
Mabye the Borg took their time chopping up the ship because of it's a novel variant on the miranda and swatted the Melbourne because they'd already assimilated an Excelsior somewhere prior.
Maybe the Borg took time carving it up cause it couldn't work out where those large 'windows' were?
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Crew counts: Lantree - 26 Br!ttain - 34
My general theory is that Mirandas these days take only about 20 people to run the thing. Older ships, or ships on non-frontline missions, are heavily automated and have a selection of mission specialists in addition to the basic crew: a half dozen cargo specialists on the Lantree, or a bunch of scientists on the Br!ttain.
The Lantree was just a freighter and the Brittain was....er....doomed, so they didint need much by way of crew. (Mirandas and Oberths were deathtraps on TNG) I figure a ship as large as the Miranda needs a crew of at least 45: 15 crewmen per shift minimum (dont forget people getting the occasional leave or day off). 15 per shift is still really sparce.
quote: Saratoga, as a specialized ship (or whatever those pods are for) would probably be carrying that same core crew, plus whatever specialists, and then for whatever reason their families. Say, for example, that Saratoga could've been a surveyor on a long-term non-combat mission through mostly explored or Federeation space. Given that we saw only 3-4 escape pods leave the ship (up to ~20 people each, no?), I'm thinking her total crew including civvies would be no more than 100.
Feasable: assuming that the civillians still performed some shipboard duties in their respective departments (science techs can still calibrate a sensor, those lazy bastards!).
quote: Various "combat Mirandas" seen during the war (with or without the questionable addition of impulse engines aft) would likely have no more than 50 aboard, given the probable level of automation. Slap a tactical and damage control crew in there, and you'll have a conteporary of the Defiant. I'm most convinced of that shot in "SoA" with Defiant, Sitak and Majestic flying in formation - just doesn't seem right that the two other ships would still have 200+ people aboard.
I agree completely (a crew of 50 is right for wartime)....although I dont get your "added impulse engines" refrence. Everything I've seen shows stock Miarandas being swatted like flies with no external upgrades (although they dont fire phasers from the rollbar on DS9).
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posted
The Added Impulse Engine thing refers to the fact that, in many of the later-DS9 shots, the rear torpedo area of the Miranda's glowed, like impulse engines. It was probably a mistake by the VFX people, but a possible fan-explanation is that the rear torpedo launcher has been replaced with extra impulse engines.
On the other parts of this topic, I do wonder why the civilians were there in the first place. They could have easily been stuffed into escape pods. But then the Enterprise never seemed to be too concerned at risking the lives of the non-Starfleet crew on a weekly basis, so maybe no other Captain does. The civilians probably all have to sign forms promising not to sue Starfleet if they get assimilated.
And Jason: Don't say "Brittain". It'll just through Omega back into bad habits.
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posted
even though the Mirand� shown in TNG and DS9 (and Voyager, Generations and FC) had no significant external alterations, i think its fair to assume the decrease in crew count comes from significant interior remodeling. In the movie era, there were dozens of dead end jobs that were downsized due to automation, this must necessarily occur when a TNG-era Miranda has new internal mechanics installed to carry out this automation. TWOK showed a lot of weapons crew and engineering officers. All those guys who pulled the grates off the torpedo launchers are kinda redundant. (but then again, NX-01 launchers load themselves )
TNG weapons are mostly under computer operation, and remember.. the ships cleans itself! that accounts for a couple jobs right there.. but how many 'ship cleaning itself' conduits did they have to run through the old converted galley room which is no longer used due to replicator installation.
of course my internal modification theory does have one hole: as early as ST3 Scotty ran a whole frickin Constitution with only like 5 people on it, and all in one location.. apparently the dozens of engineers at relays seen in TOS, TMP, TWOK and ST6 weren't as important as they seemed. apparently most every station that is necessary for weapons and travel is able to be controlled by computer (Ultimate Computer; Search for Spock).. the only jobs the ship cant do itself is make decisions and physically manipulate its own equipment.
perhaps: the only reason Starfleet keeps people aboard is because they cant stabilize the computer control without them, M-5 and the failure of the automation in St3 demonstrate this. or they cant afford to keep so much computing equipment under that massive load, people are just cheaper to use.
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posted
I think the Sisko quarters were located portside on the USS Saratoga. I base this on two observations - 1. While being held in a Borg tractor beam, the USS Saratoga was facing towards the Borg cube. 2. The USS Bonestell was struck by a single shot coming off-screen from the right. This suggests the starship was flying under the portside of the crippled Miranda-Class starship when the Bonestell was destroyed. As we know there was only one Cube at this point in the battle, the shot could have only come from the Borg cube which was located to the front of the Saratoga.
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posted
Why? If the ever-exploding Oberth class can have families, why not a Miranda?
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posted
How many people did Khan have with him when he commandeered the Reliant? Remember that, from the original batch, several died on Ceti Alpha V. Per TWoK's dialogues, they must have been 50 at most.
quote: He never told you how Admiral Kirk sent seventy of us into exile on this barren sand heap with only the contents of these cargo bays to sustain us?
quote:Allow me introduce you to Ceti Alpha Five's only remaining indigenous life form; what do you think? They've killed twenty of my people, including my beloved wife.
So, back then in the late 23rd century, with the technology of the day, 50 people could manage to crew a Miranda-class vessel. Granted, they were genetically enhanced, but I don't think that would make too much of a difference...
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posted
Mabye they pulled the ol' Ceti Eel trick on some of Reliant's crew? At least to show them how to fly the ship.
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