"Wouldnt there have been lots of obvious fresh debris if a whole planet had blown itself up within the past 20 or so years?"
Sure. But they'd just seem to be asteroids. Remember Alderaan?
"Or why the Reliant's scans didn't pick up that big honking piece of metal or the 50 human beings scouring about outside it."
They did. They just couldn't tell what it was because of the storms on the planet. That's the whole reason they beamed down in the first place.
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quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: The eelish crew thing was a novel reference, not canon. It's just one way the author thought up to cover the notion that Khan's crew couldn't do EVERYTHING.
Mark
But nothing in the film quite rules it out, either. As long as most of Reliant's crew were on Ceti Alpha the film's dialogue still applies. The novel said there were ten of the engineering crew. Ten out of how many? Probably more than 50, given that the refit Enterprise has 500.
It's a bit of a stretch that Terrell wouldn't mention it (as Reverend mentioned), but Terrell was still under the eel's influence at the time. His purpose was to fool Kirk (and the audience), not give a full report.
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: It was MORE dumb that Reliant warped into the system to find one *less* planet floating around without mentioning it.
Mark
That too was in the script, but either cut out of the film or never made it in to start with. (Does the SE have all the extra footage actually filmed?) The Reliant did pick up a discrepancy, but attributed it to innacurate probe data. They apparently had no record of Kirk leaving Khan there. Which was maybe dumb on the writers' part, to be sure. Does "Space Seed" mention anything about Kirk keeping it a secret?
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: 2.) "The promo-vid shown in ST III had to have been made before the events of ST II"
On what do you base this? (Assuming it isn't something obvious, like a stardate I've never paid attention to.)
Oh, I remember the promotional video seen on TWoK, and it did have a stardate earlier than the movies events. If only I could find a screencap of it... That stardate was like throwing more wood into the fire, allow me to quote myself in an e-mail I wrote at the time:
quote:ST:TMP (SD 7411.4) (snipped) STII:TWOK (SD 8130.3) It's mentioned that Kirk marooned Khan & co. on Ceti Alpha V _15_ years earlier... counting from 2267 (SD 3141.9, 2267-10-09), that would put the "current" year on 2282... In fact, "Space Seed" was aired on 1967 and TWOK opened on 1982... and I don't think genetic supermen have any problems with simple math! A 1000 unit/yr system would have passed once through 0000.0 and then reached the 8000s again, in 15 years... and that would make sense with the earlier comment on the SD on the "Demonstration Presentation of Project Genesis" of 7130.4, one year earlier... (a 1 unit/dy system would have less than 14 years passed)
So, there you have it: SD 7130.4, recorded a year prior to the events in the movie.
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quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: Does "Space Seed" mention anything about Kirk keeping it a secret?
i think somebody points out to kirk that he doesnt hve the authority to put khan on trial or to take that planet, it probably follows kirk kept it secret..
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"Wouldnt there have been lots of obvious fresh debris if a whole planet had blown itself up within the past 20 or so years?"
Sure. But they'd just seem to be asteroids. Remember Alderaan?
Yes: more horribly bad science to think that a giant laser would instantly do anything visible and would cause the planet to explode into a zillion pieces. Think of escape velocity: all those chunks needed to reach that speed to be thrown clear from the planet's central mass. Alderan must have had a Naqueda core or it was a giant space pinata or something.
Generations did a good job showing the destruction from the supernova (when shown on Veridian III) as not instantanous (although the shockwave was there far too quickly, but I digress).
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
We know that the video seen in TWOK was old. Kirk himself says that it was recorded a year ago. The question is whether or not the Kirk-narrated one in STIII was recorded around the same time (perhaps for official Starfleet use), or was it recoreded between TWOK and TSFS.
Regarding Kirk's knowledge of Genesis, the first time it comes up in the movie is when Carol tries to contact him about the Reliant's fake orders to take it away.
quote:Repeat... what's wrong? What's wrong?
CAROL ... taking Genesis away from us...
KIRK Taking Genesis? Who? Who is taking Genesis?
CAROL ... see you but can't hear. Did you... order...?
KIRK What order? Who's taking Genesis?
This is before any sort of emergency situation has arisen on the Enterprise. Kirk's reaction strongly implies that he already knows what Genesis is. He says "Who is taking Genesis", not "What is Genesis". The question now is whether he was specifically involved in Genesis in some way, or whether it was just another Top-Secret Project that he knew about as an Admiral in Starfleet.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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When they broke up, Carol took Kirk's collection of aincent Phil Collins recordings and...
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
But then, looking at the script of STIII, during the scene where Krudge is reviewing the stolen Genesis information, Kirk narrates:
quote:To fully understand the events on which I report, it is necessary to review the theoretical data on the Genesis Device...
Which supports Simon's idea that the whole thing was made between films.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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Anyhoo, somewhere in the depths of the Starships & Technology section, there's stuff about both the "Emissary" Saratoga and the Tsiolkovski intended to be new designs, but time/budget considerations put the kibosh on that. Given the crew, the sets, the dedication plaque, and all else, the Tsiolkovski (and indeed, the Oberth class in general) was intended to be a more TNG-y science vessel, and not the dinky ol' Grissom hauled out of storage at the last minute. That sort of thing happened annoyingly frequently on TNG. The Tsiolkovski, the Bozeman, the Crazy Horse, the Biko, the Pegasus... Hell, even the Hood in "Encounter at Farpoint" until they decided to use models instead of matte paintings.
--Jonah
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posted
Well, certainly from dialogue in TWoK it seems Kirk knew very well what Genesis was, though pretending otherwise in front of Khan. The video in TSfS was in all likelihood recorded by Kirk after the confrontation with Khan, utilizing parts of the original presentation video. Since evidently Genesis had stopped being a secret at that point, Kirk had some explaining to do...
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quote:Originally posted by Topher: Also, what about the feed that Klingon chicky sends Kruge? As I recall, the snippets of video in that one are Kirk's video.
I think that is what Psyliam was mentioning.
And that very well could have been one of Kirks unseen "Captain's logs" and or it was sent out in some sort of distress beacon or log buoy left behind after the initial encounter with Khan in the event that Khan could not be stopped (for example).
That might also explain how Valkris was able to get that information from Kirk aboard the Enterprise to Kruge...
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