posted
No, they're not, as Rob explained. I can do something that I find morally abhorent, if the alternative is even moreso. Jefferson had two choices. The first was that he could simply release all his slaves immediately, and let them fend for themselves with no education or skills. The second was to educate them so that they COULD fend for themselves, and THEN release them. And, guess what. That's exactly what he did.
Which one seems like the better outcome for the slave?
------------------ "Omega is right." -Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
Interesting. Out of the fifteen black males killed by Cincinnati police in the last six years, twelve of them were attacking or otherwise threatening an officer. Heck, one had already shot one THREE TIMES. Out of the remaining three, two of them involved black officers. Told you the media were irresponsible.
Still care to contend racism on the part of the police department?
------------------ "Omega is right." -Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
posted
And do you have stats for whites shot by the Cincinnatti PD, Omega? How many resisted? How many didn't? Do you dispute that blatantly racist practices such as Racial Profiling or the conduct of LA-PD's Rampart Division influence blacks across the nation, including in Cinncinatti?
Which one seems like the better outcome for the slave?
The age old cry of the oppressor. "They're better as slaves then free men." Thankfully, we put that attitude behind us.
You might want to reconsider your position on this, Omega. Since when is slavery better than freedom?
And Jefferson didn't free his slaves until after his death. While his "goals" might be considered laudable by some, his application of his goals is not. One does not improve another's life by keeping them as a piece of property. I still don't see how he's anything but a hypocrite, and frankly, I can't understand why people are defending his keeping of slaves.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** "I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited April 20, 2001).]
posted
Maggie Lena Mitchell Walker, the daughter of a freed slave, put herself through school, joined a fraternal organization, increased its treasury from $31.61 to $3,480,540.19, helped establish a tuberculosis sanitarium and a home for delinquent girls, helped found a community center, an educational loan fund, and became the first woman founder and president of a chartered bank, The Consolidated Bank and Trust Company, in 1803. (A bank which flourished during the depression and is still around today.)
And she did it ALL long before AA, before "Civil Rights," before all that.
A Quote: "I have worked all day and all night, and whatever has come to me in these days has come because I worked... worked before I married, worked after I married, and I am working harder now than ever in my life."
If SHE could do it THEN...
------------------ The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
posted
Much as I admire Jefferson for many things, I do still wonder about his slave ownership. Were his slaves allowed to leave any time they wanted? Even if he wanted to educate them, you can't force someone to learn if they don't want to. If he made them stay and work while "educating" them, w/o giving them the option to go fend for themselves if they wanted, he's just like the man who beats the shit out of his children, claiming that it's for their own good. Much as Jefferson may have wanted to help people, slavery still lacks freedom...
------------------ "Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow." -Maynard James Keenan
posted
I dunno. As long as he was treating them okay, then there is an "it's for their own good" arguument. Which is still assuming you know best, but in Jefferson's case, it might have held. You tell your uneducated kids what to do, and say it's for their own good. If Jefferson did want the slaves to be free, he might have realised that a bunch of educated black people are going to find it slightly easier to get by than a bunch of black people who can barely read, write, or speak.
------------------ You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston." -Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
posted
Oh, I like that analogy. Intellectually, they were children. It would be irresponsible for him to simply release them out into the world without preparing them, first.
------------------ "Omega is right." -Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
posted
Now I've heard everything. Omega defending slavery.
I don't know WHY I'm surprised about this.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** "I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
Thomas Jefferson spoke out against slavery. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. How does this make him NOT a hypocrite?
First of Two: your gun analogy is flawed. While you may view guns as immoral (etc)., you don't go around preaching to everyone to get rid of them and secretly prancing around your home at night hoping to shoot a robber dead. Well, not that you do that now (prancing around, I mean), but I think you see the difference?
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** "I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
posted
Er, I was the one defending slavery. Not Omega. Unless he wasn't using irony (I couldn't quite tell). Try not to leap down his throat at every opportunity.
Anyway, I wasn't defending it. I ws just trying to present another point of view. And I was just suggesting that if a load of uneducated slaves were suddenly released back then, the segregation between the races that exists in the US might be even bigger than it is now.
------------------ You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston." -Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
posted
A handful of slaves wouldn't make a big difference, Liam. And specificly, I was refering to Omega's defense of Jefferson keeping slaves. Now look, I understand the arguement ya'll are making, but ...
a) Slavery is inexcuseable for any reason
b) it still doesn't make Jefferson any less of a hypocrite.
Intellectually, they were children. I'm also wondering about this line. Does Omega truly believe this? I sure hope not. People have become adults in this world for millennia without knowing how to read or write -- I don't see why it's suddenly become a qualification for blacks 300 hundred years ago. Sounds like a defense of slavery, to me. I'm sure you've heard "the best place for blacks is as slaves!" before.
I know I have.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** "I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited April 21, 2001).]
posted
You're still thinking two-dimentionally, Jeff. Slavery was wrong, and thus needed to end. You know it, I know it, Jefferson knew it. The question, however, was HOW to end it. The slave was the one who'd had his rights violated. Thus, the appropriate question would be "What would be best for the slave?" Obviously, it was better for the slave to be released when he's as prepared as he could be for the real world, than to be released when he wasn't. Exactly what Jefferson did.
------------------ "Omega is right." -Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
posted
"People have become adults in this world for millennia without knowing how to read or write -- I don't see why it's suddenly become a qualification for blacks 300 hundred years ago."
Because the world had changed. Come on, just because people USED to be able to get by without reading and writing, doesn't mean that it's true now. The blacks were stuck in the US. To get by in US society, reading and writing are very useful skills to have.
If you want to get by without reading and writing, fine. But don't expect to be treated the same as other members of society.
------------------ You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston." -Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
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