posted
Mojo - except for the simplest of maps - getting into maps might be a MINEFIELD - there are SO many wierd inconsistancies.
I wish each page was imbedded with a movable picture - so those Astrometrics pics could come to life and show us the maps in 3d. So many people (including myself) who try and map the Trek universe forget that we are dealing with THREE dimensions - which makes the map making VERY difficult.
Who was it that said they thought that the Federation would look like an amoeba with a nucleus - the core worlds - and then pseudopoda stretching out to encompass outer worlds - with large gaps inbetween and that the Klingons the Romulans, Cardassians, Talarians, Tholians, Gorn, Tzenkethi, Sheliak, Breen, Ferengi etc would intermingal with this large 'amoeba' on in all three dimensions!
I think though I have a rough idea in my head about DS9... OK picture this...
DS9 is in front of you the segment we see when the Defiant and Martok's ship are leaving in "Call To Arms"... look through this and you'd be looking towards Bajor and towards Bajor'a'heal or what ever the Bajor sun is called. on your right and up a tiny bit would be the wormhole. Past Bajor - in that direction you're looking would be towards the centre of the Galaxy. To your left would be The Cardassian Union and the Badlands would be to your left at about 10 o'clock. at 6 o'clock - looking AWAY from DS9 you'd be looking back to Federation Territory. to your left would be Klingon and Romulan Territory and now (seeing as we've turned around) to your RIGHT would be Cardassian territory - but at about 2 o'clock would be the beginning of the DMZ.
I'm sure I've lost everyone
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
Sounds like you'd need a map to find your way around that map
Mojo: I just read the Prologue from "Ashes of Eden" (by Shatner himself) and I think it is an excelent candidate for your book. It depicts the honour guard arriving at Veridian III with Spock to pick up Kirk's body to be brought back to Earth. It also mentions the opperation to dismantle and remove the hulk of the Enterprise, I think both of these images would look really nice if you can manage it.
If you don't have the book I could probably to an OCR scan of the appropriate sections of text.
And that Star Trek Map page is awesome! A huge help! Thanks for the link.
The maps I include in the book are going to be to help the reader get a general idea of what's what - they are not meant to be cartography-accurate!
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
There's more about the Enterprise crash site in the 2nd book, "Return". Obviously the stories in these books couldn't possibly have a happened, but these aftermath scenes are quite plausable...
$-Book Spoiler-$
$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $
Except for the bit about the Farragut being destroyed in orbit.
posted
I've heard some good arguments, but I'm still not convinced.
I'd like to hear more opinions regarding the "Did the Borg come from Decker-Ilia-V'Ger" concept.
It may have only been 75 years before Kirk, but as we have seen Borg tech moves at a very rapid pace. The cubes changed drastically between "Q Who" and Voyager, as did the look of the Drones and the interior of the cubes, so I'm prepared to buy that they covered a lot of ground and did the bulk of their assymilating during those years.
Unless, of course, I hear some good points to the contrary!
posted
1.) Guinan suggests the Borg were in existence for thousands (if not tens of thousands) of years prior to "Q Who."
2.) The scary cobraish aliens from Voyager mentioned that they had Borg in their time, 900 years or so prior to that episode.
3.) Opinion! TMP and the Borg...arc, as it were, have almost nothing in common thematically. If we were forced to find a single theme for the Borg, it might indeed be the potential danger of technology, or, perhaps, the dangers of mob mentality, or what have you. None of which appeared in TMP. V'ger didn't act like the Borg. More importantly, it wasn't looking for the same thing out of life. V'ger wanted to find God and merge with it. (Perhaps V'Ger was a Sufi?) The Borg don't seem to have any particular interest in their origins. Or, rather, the origin of the Borg doesn't seem to inform their present actions in that way.
4.) First Contact suggests that the Borg were organic first, and then technological, rather than the other way around.
5.) Personally, I'm extremely apathetic to the idea that everything needs to be tied together anyway. Sure, there are good stories to be told by connecting previously unrelated events, and that can create a richer fictional tapestry. But shoehorning one plot into another can just as often come across as...hamfisted. There's nothing to suggest that V'ger and the Borg are related other than a half-joke made by Roddenberry many years ago.
6.) Lastly, and again personally, I favor the idea of the Borg being just like everyone else prior to their "unification" because it makes them more than just really mean aliens with a curious origin story. Human beings are never going to meet up with a giant living spaceship constructed around a Voyager space probe. But we may very well find ourselves transformed by technological progress in ways we can't yet imagine.
[ January 06, 2002: Message edited by: Sol System ]
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posted
There's no way that the Borg came from V'Ger/Decker/Illia - as mentioned previously. I'd just like to add, that V'Ger's mission (or more specifically Voyager 6) was to "Learn all that there was to learn" - V'Ger accomplished this - and it had returned to it's creator - and as McCoy says there's nothing left for it to learn... except what humans can understand something else OUTSIDE the universe - other dimensions etc. It (V'Ger) could only move on by adding a human element... Decker.
Andrew
P.S.
And the only reason that there has been any change in Borg ships - is that the Producers wanted more shapes for more toys. Cubes do me fine - make the more mysterious especially when Data couldn't determine whether or not the Cube from BOBW was the same Cube they had encountered at System J25.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
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posted
I consider it possible that Voyager6 might have been altered by the Borg in some way.. but the link has to end there.. to satisfy the bounds of the theme and story, VGer must grow and become sentient on its own, and the events of TMP couldnt and didnt have any backwash effect on the Borg themselves
1) assumption: The Borg planet was the machine planet in TMP a) The Borg were already well established at this point. this can't be their origin, unless you involve time travel (ah, where were will and ilia going...?) b) VGer was not assimilated, per se. Obviously there was no communication with the Borg after the probe contacted them, or inclusion into their group mind. VGer was alone, and the Borg remained ignorant of VGers actions.. its possible VGer was enhanced by Borg tech & nanoprobes & what have you, developed into a much more powerful probe,and struck out on its own c) The 'evolution' of VGer had no effect on the Borg milieu. If VGer originated at Borg, it couldnt have gone back..
with all these outcomes to satisfy, the link between the Borg and VGer becomes tenuous but possible. But its very thin. I like to think of it this way though.
-------------------- "Are you worried that your thoughts are not quite.. clear?"
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posted
I used to like the idea of the Borg being the origin of the "machine planet" in TMP, but I realized...
Why would the Borg NOT assimilate Voyager 6?
In any case, the aliens/machines/whatever MUST have accessed Voyager 6's databanks and gotten its information, because they knew what the probe's mission was. Therefore they must have learned at least a bit about Earth.
And if the aliens that modified V'ger were indeed the Borg... then that would mean that the Borg knew about Earth and Humanity much, much sooner than we previously thought.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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I need good reference pics of damaged starships, preferably not framegrabs.
I found a really good one of a damaged Oberth class on Astris Scientia, but I could use more shots of models that have had 'battle damage' added to them.
quote:Originally posted by Mojo: I'd like to hear more opinions regarding the "Did the Borg come from Decker-Ilia-V'Ger" concept.
Mojo
1. As established elsewhere, the Borg were around long before Voyager 6 was luanched.
2. The Borg aren't living machines, they're cybernetic organisms.
3. V'ger has memories of its home planet, but it doesn't have an inkling about carbon units or their functioning. Unlikely if it were of Borg manufacture.
4. Spock relates that he "saw V'ger's planet." He mentions "unbelieveable technology" but he apparently got not an inkling of biological life.
5. Although it's just his opinion, Spock says the machine inhabitants "made Voyager 6 into all this" which implies V'ger was made as we saw it, which is wayyyyy beyond Borg technology as shown. (V'ger's consciousness is another matter entirely.)
6. Borg behavior is inconsistent with what V'ger's planet did for Voyager 6.
Maurice
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
Registered: Feb 2001
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