posted
As a student of geology and paleontology, I must correct you, Sir. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, which is a very far cry from "barely millions." And evolution in higher animals (as opposed to more rapidly reproducing bacteria and invertebrates) does NOT occur within "only a couple of thousand years," but---at the quickest---tens or hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions.
Dogs were probably first domesticated by Man somewhere between 50,000 and 15,000 years ago. And aside from this, artificial selective breeding effects genetic drift on an amplified scale compared to natural selection. Many dog breeds were produced by selectively breeding mutants that never would have survived in a natural setting.
The only "acknowledgement" of a change in Klingon appearance was in "Trials and Tribble-ations" (DS9) and that was clearly a joke for the benefit of the audience. The fact that all other incidences of "historical" Klingons (including Kahless, the ENT Klingons, and even the three Klingons from TOS itself Kang, Kor, and Koloth) have confirmed that they have always been bumpy-headed.
And I appreciate you trying to back me up, but using faulty arguments to do so doesn't really help.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Neutrino 123: I say the Klingons don't count and the Romulan change is small (similar to Worf's change from TNG to DS9). I don't remember any TNG Trill, though.
"The Host": Beverly knocks one up, called Odan. The Trill here have bumpy forheads, can't use transporters, and the symbiote is in complete control, compared to the "joined" being seen in DS9.
Thank god you cleared that up. Imagine the embarrassment if someone came up to you in real life and called you "Neutrino one hundred and twenty three". You'd never live it down.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
The guy looked more like an angry, constipated Benzite. Or a Bynar with acne problems. Or a Nausicaan who lost a fight. He's certainly not Reman.
Yes, he has a built-up nose, just like a dozen other species, including Ferengi, Klingon, and others. However, unlike the Remans, his nose buildup doesn't suddenly change course and flow toward the cheeks.
Yes, he has a wide region between the eyes, just like Jem'Hadar and others. However, unlike the Remans, his wide region doesn't flow in direct from the single brow ridge.
Yes, he has circumocular buildup producing deep eye sockets, just like Cardassians and others. However, unlike the Remans, his doesn't completely surround the eyes, and certainly doesn't produce anything like a diamond shape.
Yes, he has ears with makeup on them, but they are completely dissimilar to Reman ears.
Yes, his lips are made-up, but they are completely dissimilar to Reman lips.
Further, he has spiky things in front of his ears. He has red eyes. And, last but not least:
HE'S F***ING BLUE!!!
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: As a student of geology and paleontology, I must correct you, Sir. The Earth is 4.6 billion years old, which is a very far cry from "barely millions." And evolution in higher animals (as opposed to more rapidly reproducing bacteria and invertebrates) does NOT occur within "only a couple of thousand years," but---at the quickest---tens or hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions. -MMoM
And let this be a lesson to all you kids out there in high school and college that you will forget everything once you leave college...and do a lot of drugs.
Anyway, suffice it to say Evolutionary Biology was my Capstone...2 years ago...and what the fuck, I wrote that? Did I mention, don't do drugs?
oh and...
quote: Dogs were probably first domesticated by Man somewhere between 50,000 and 15,000 years ago. And aside from this, artificial selective breeding effects genetic drift on an amplified scale compared to natural selection. Many dog breeds were produced by selectively breeding mutants that never would have survived in a natural setting.
Anyway, my senior thesis/project was on this...or was it on fish? Hell if I know...have to dust it off and check that out. Anyway, most common breeds that have the greatest variations in 'design'...fufu poodles, taco bell dogs, wiener dogs, beethoven dogs, pitbulls have only come to be in the last few hundred years, at most, all originating from white fang. Did I mention don't do drugs?
Anyway, I still haven't seen concrete evidence that the Remans were conquered.
Anyway, the Klingon this was on the screen so it is canon...nah nah!
Anyway, turn on, tune in, drop out!
Timothy Leary, 2004!!! Woo!|||
God I'm so wasted!
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Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Should I always remember to bring a towel? You have no idea what's going on...
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by Neutrino 123: I say the Klingons don't count and the Romulan change is small (similar to Worf's change from TNG to DS9). I don't remember any TNG Trill, though.
"The Host": Beverly knocks one up, called Odan. The Trill here have bumpy forheads, can't use transporters, and the symbiote is in complete control, compared to the "joined" being seen in DS9.
Thank god you cleared that up. Imagine the embarrassment if someone came up to you in real life and called you "Neutrino one hundred and twenty three". You'd never live it down.
1. Ack!? If that was actually a Trill, I retract my statement about only small changes in species forehead development. 2. Someone did that once...the next five minutes caused them to never do it again. Murhahahaha!
posted
In Star Trek VI we saw Klingons with barely noticable bumps on their heads, and we've seen intricate patterns of bumps, nooks, and crannies on Warf's head. It's not impossible Kirk didn't encounter any bumpy Klingons, in TOS.. though we all know the answer is '60's makup and budget'.
-------------------- joH'a' 'oH wIj DevwI' jIH DIchDaq Hutlh pagh (some days it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps in the morning) The Woozle!
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
Yes, but the same individuals (Kang, Kor, and Koloth) who were seen "without" ridges in TOS were later seen on DS9 with ridges. Also, Kang was seen by Sulu in 2293 (as per "Flashback [VGR]) only 25 years after appearing in "Day of the Dove," and Sulu didn't go "WHOA KANG DUDE WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR FUCKING FACE???" or have any trouble recognizing him. That's really the final nail in that coffin.
-MMoM
P.S. I was about to own up to derailing this thread further still, but then I realized that even this tired discussion is better than what was going on a few pages back...
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
One thing that I've noticed in novels and such is reference to the ridges on a Klingon's forehead somehow being a sign of his family. Maybe its possible that the ridges are some kind of advanced surgery, so that members of a family can be recognized? Of course, this theory could only work if Kurn and Worf's ridges were the same.
Registered: Mar 1999
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quote:I would consider it exceedingly moronic of them to introduce a new and apparently important species whose appearance could so easily be mistaken for that of a Reman. (Even if only at first glance, since the alien was only seen in one brief shot.
Technically true, but you're forgetting the laziness of the whole ENT production staff in reusing everything from ship designs to makeup & prosthetics from other series & movies. That is, either laziness or UPN forcing them to keep within a strict, ridiculously small budget, which is probably the real reason, if not at least half the reason.
quote:The differences between the two makeup jobs are slight and subtle, and are easily attributable to Westmore refining the Reman design so as to make it more practical for use on a weekly series budget/schedule.
Again, either that, or Westmore just picked a random Reman forehead prosthetic off the shelf & did the best he could with it.
quote:The changes between TOS Klingons and Romulans and their later movie/TNG counterparts have always been intended to be "non-changes" from a production standpoint. (Meaning, they "always" looked like that. The only reason they didn't appear that way on TOS was because they didn't have the makeup budget/technology to do it.
Yes, but here, you're comparing TOS '60's production values to '90's production values. That's not the same comparison as the one for this "Nazi Reman" argument, where there was just a few years difference from Nemesis to Zero Hour.
quote:Remans are not genetically related to the Romulans or Vulcans. The implication from Nemesis is that they were an indigenous race that was conquered by the Romulans when they migrated to their system. And evolution doesn't occur on the scale of centuries, it takes millions of years. The small amount of genetic drift between the Vulcans and Romulans apparently occurred within millennia, but then again it could have its roots much further in the past. (i.e., there could have been a genetic/racial split before the Romulans even left Vulcan.)
Although in this particular instance I agree with you, I have to say that there was absolutely no evidence in Nemesis that the Remans were either related to the Romulans/Vulcans, or not. I also didn't see any implications of this in the movie either, which was just one of the frustrating things about that movie. The only thing I saw that even remotely looked like a link between the species was that they both had pointed ears.
Even though G/JR-S and "Shatner's" newest novel Captain's Blood states that the Remans were indeed descended from the Romulans, I still, like you, find that a little presumptuous.
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted
Regarding re-using stuff from other shows, let's remember that this is TV here, and re-use is the name of the game. Heck, half of the stuff on Buck Rogers came from Battlestar Galactica (and Match Game 75, fromt he looks of it!), and how many times did we see those circular archways in early TNG? It's a money making enterprise and you spend as much as necessary to make the show and no more.
And, it's not just money, it's time. These shows are made under very tight schedules amd there isn't time to do everything the way you want. So, you pick your battles and you make do with whatever you've got at hand.
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
Registered: Feb 2001
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